Nina Heckman / Metropolis Records, in full

0:14Heat. Heat.

1:34Hi friends. Um this is Tash and you are watching Unwritten Rules of the Road. Um we have a really special guest today. Uh joining us, Nina Hecman from Metropolis Records. Thank you so much for being here with us.

1:51Yeah, thanks for having me. So um yeah. Yeah, I've been I've been really excited to to get to chat with you. Um I've I've I'm I'm on a few bands that are on Metropolis. I play keyboards for a few of your bands, but um it's just I've known about Metropolis for so long as um

2:13infield, correct? Or is there is there more? I know we're for those of us that play instruments, it's interesting how we like kind of like rotate with so many

2:23Festivals I go to and there's certain people that uh that's like, "Oh, you're in eight bands." Like Eric Gotdisdin, he's going to be in like eight bands.

2:33Or Jamie from Comie Christ. He's going to be in eight. Every once in a while I show up to a festival and they're like, "No, I'm only in one band." And you're like, "What? I entered the Twilight

2:47It's true. It's true. I know. It's funny. I mean, it's like an ongoing joke. Every time Eric and I see each

2:54it's like we usually cross paths, too, at the festivals. So, which is awesome.

2:59I've met Eric since I was like 10. Um he his uh he has like a not great story about the first time he met me because I was just being a brat who didn't want to be there and just was like basically having to predict [laughter] from I think this is how he recalls it to me. I don't remember. [laughter] like great except I'm not embarrassed about things anymore. So whatever.

3:31Yeah. I think that's it's you know it's it is one of the things I actually really love about our community is just the friendships that you forge and just over time it's like wow there's so many stories and so much history that you form together over time

3:47and unfortunately sometimes it is like oh wow I did that. [laughter]

3:54Yeah. So I mean I was a kid so I mean with my dad so there I mean some people met me as a kid. So um yeah I mean though Godisdman is not that much older than me. He was playing in bands when he was underage so like he he we were both snuck into the venue. So [laughter]

4:17I was 18 or something. [snorts] I have to ask, do you have a recollection of like your first live show?

4:25Sisters of Mercy when I was a little kid. Yeah.

4:30So, yeah. Uh,

4:34what did you think of it? Did you love it or was it

4:36I was actually It was at like It was a big venue in Philadelphia and I was actually afraid of goths. I remember being [laughter] and Andrew Aldridge. I don't know if I should tell this story, but anyways, he Well, I feel like old school goths don't like being called goths. Like Susie Sue, Andrew Eldridge, um, uh, Robert Smith from The Cure. My dad, uh, hate being called Goth. I mean, my dad would wear all black all the time, but like if you called him Goth, he'd be pissed off. I'm like, "Dude, you run like the biggest goth label in the whole world. Like you like how can you

5:17deny it?" And I I come into venues. I kind of like I would consider myself goth I listen to goth music. I like dark music. Um but I also like kind of I'm I'm a little bit of a troll to goths too. I like I'm a rainbow goth. So like I were I will tell people like oh like I can't really rebel from my family because they're you know out there or whatever. And mine is wear as much color as possible. Like it's weird that my hair is one color right now. Normally it's like five. Um I've come in like I've gone to like a

5:52clan of Zymok show and like a pretty and pink dress kind of like uh with like hearts all over it and you know Tish from Yes Productions. I know you interviewed her.

6:04She showed up at the venue and she fell to the ground like laughing. I thought she was going to pee herself. I think she was like bracing her pelvic floor when she fell to the ground. [laughter] So my trolling goth is like like, "Oh, that chick runs Metropolis Records." And then you're like, I've actually had people like argue with me being like, "No, you don't because I'm just so colorful." [laughter] I'll be like, "Okay, whatever you have that belief, you have whatever preconceived notion you have." Um, so yeah.

6:37I think it's awesome. I love that you bring in like a completely like fresh like perspective in that way,

6:45you know.

6:46And apparently I'm not the only Rainbow Goth got that, but we're were rare. So you can pick me for sure. [laughter]

6:54Um actually superlative in high school, I got most likely to stand out in a crowd. So I have not um uh let that award down. So yeah. Yes. Yes. I'm glad that you have lived up to your

7:13my only high school world. Yeah. So I was I I I take it you know at least I didn't get like most likely to end up in jail like that was a [laughter] people got so that you know. So, so here you are running Metropolis Records like and initially it's it's interesting like your first um show was Sisters of Mercy. Um I that's really really awesome. Like I I've never actually had a chance to see them myself. It's been on my bucket list of like bands that I would love to eventually experience live. But um

7:54I mean you've probably lost track at this point of how many

7:58I feel like uh his like there was a while too where there was so much smoke that you couldn't even see him play and I know people complained about that and then the show started getting better again because [laughter]

8:16uh yeah

8:17there's nothing like good smoke I think I think I think it's it's like one of those things where it's like yes

8:27Phoenix Jade is saying who doesn't love rainbows I agree yes [laughter]

8:33on one of my sweaters it's just like a rainbow cloud it's like we're ALL GOING TO DIE AND IT'S like smiling you know

8:39yes [laughter] so um I was wondering actually like um being so embedded in in the music um industry. Um like do you like have like certain I guess um times that you need to take like breaks because I'm sure it's like you you have to stay so busy um supporting your bands, going to shows, all the things. Um, but yeah, I was just curious like um are is there like periods of time where you have to like kind of like step away to to feed your own well, so to speak, because I know you're also an artist.

9:24Yeah. I mean, as far as like bands coming into town, like sometimes it'll be like the most will be like, oh, one every week or something.

9:35That outrageous. I do find tra I travel a lot for work which is fun but also at the same time sometimes not grounding. So festivals festivals take a lot out of you just I get winded whatever if I have to go to Europe then coming back my sleep is horrible then it's like coming back is the worst because then I just stop sleeping like I missed my sarcadian rhythm and then it's just like no you're just going to stay up all night and then you're like couple days go by and you're just like I haven't slept so so I know last year I took like eight months off

10:11from traveling because I just like hit a wall where it was just this is um too much. But yeah, I I mean there's also like a balance too in like I've been with my own art, I've been more prolific than I've ever been in my whole entire life. And last like the last two weeks I cranked out like two paintings a week.

10:38Uh and now I'm kind of slowing down. Like sometimes in between projects I kind of slow down. But I was like like [ __ ] the world. I don't need the world. I just need my art. And then after like a week and a half of like no contact with the world, you're like I'm sad.

10:59Like I need a hug. So

11:02but I just didn't uh schedule people into my life. And so it's just, you know, every time something gets a little out of whack, then it's like, oh, I have to reassess like what I need to be balanced. Uh, so

11:17a human connection is one of those. Even if you do think the world sucks. Um, apparently we need that.

11:27We do need each other. It's true. So, um, but yeah, uh, so yeah, just finding balance in general and then seeing what, you know, like my body needs in all that. So, yeah, I'll take breaks when I need to. If bands are in town, I always make an effort to see the bands even. Like, I mean, there's been times where I'm like, I can't stay for the show. Like, maybe I have jet lag or something that's happened probably twice where I just came back from like Europe or something and I'm just But I'll at least like get dinner. Like I I I feel like it's really it's really important

11:59for me to have relationships with my bands. Um it's different when you're an email than when you're a person. Uh I've had bands where I'm literally like like when I first started three and a half years ago, I mean people didn't know who I was other than like Dave's daughter or you know an email. So it's like they didn't have rapport with me. And sometimes it'd be like I just write them an email like hey I need you to claim your Spotify like over and over and then just no email. and then you meet them at a festival and then they're like for like weeks they're like they're texting

12:31you every single day because then they're like oh they put a person to it. So having these these relationships with people really helps um the communication and then just the drive like knowing their drive drives me like and and kind of feeding off of that energy.

12:51You know it actually makes me think about um like the power of the live interaction in general. Um, and I I just wanted to ask you actually like what you think um if it's still important um with like playing live um touring and playing live music. Um because you know obviously you can still reach people digitally um you know and reach people in different ways but like you were saying you were talking about like the power of the actual like interfacing in person you know

13:23a really good show you can have like a spiritual experience uh with art. I mean art art to me is a spiritual experience. We talked a little bit about this on our pre talk but uh like what like where does art come from? It comes from the soul. comes from your heart. Like, you have to be emotionally vulnerable to make art. Um, I mean, you could not be, but I just don't think it's as powerful. Like, I I went through a five-year period where I made no art at all or maybe like force myself to make one painting a year and it didn't it couldn't. So, like

14:02artists are like a certain breed. We're very emotional creatures and I think in order to make art you have to be like emotionally vulnerable and I learned in my time away from art like what it means to make art like so I had like a reawakening like a little over a year ago and it was kind of a painful experience uh because I purposely turned off my vulnerability to deal with life because hard. So like when I turned it back on, it's just like, oh, I'm emotional about all this stuff or there's things that I pushed down that I didn't want to deal with. So

14:42there' just be a lot of emotions that came up and then I had a choice. I can go back to being dead and not feeling anything or I can choose to have these highs and lows which are beautiful in themselves. Like I could go into like I I also think darkness is a very beautiful thing. uh whole another topic. I um and this this gets into my goth is that I think it's very important for growth. I'm very into young philosophy that um I'm not going to suffer for no reason. Like if I'm going to suffer, it's actually a gateway to my my subconscious. I get to explore

15:24uh where this is all coming from. when I go through heartbreak, it's it gives me insight into parts of myself that have not been healed, you know?

15:36Like where where am I projecting and what what child part is not healed and then I can grow? Uh

15:46anyways, I got a little so many topics.

15:50Yeah, but um uh yeah, I don't know. Uh, I can go either down the artist's condition or or or the uh but I going back to like I guess more the artist condition. I I see this in some of my fans or even friends of mine that are are artists or musicians or they they try to chase they try to chase what the fans the fans want or they try to chase fame or whatever it is. And I think that's where the death of the artist happens. um that it really has to like or you're I have one friend right now who um he's struggling. He hasn't made an

16:40album in quite some time. Uh but he's like getting back into it and really wants to do it. And so I've been like unpacking with him like what his like outlet is. He's like, "Well, my first album was really good and the second album I chased I chased the thing, chased the dragon." And I'm like, of course, it's not going to be as good. Um because you're not like fully feeling it. Um so I could go down so many tangents. I just there's so many things popping into my head. Um so I've been really I I tell him this story. He likes me telling this

17:20story to him over and over again, but I've been really leaning into happy accidents. So, I have this. So, there's a band on my label called Lost Signal. Uh, do you know Charles at all? Okay. Yeah. Uh, so he has a song called uh Not the End of Me and it uh it's um uh it has a line, a shattered heart is easier to mend. So, I got tattooed on my

17:48yeah, so I had a no regrets moment and before everyone like drops their mouth and was like, oh my god, this is like so horrible. It was like the best thing that ever happened. It's my favorite tattoo because it's the very nature of the lyrics of of the music is so basically my tattoo artist and he's has so much shame around this. Like I also got um on the other side I want to dream everything it could be which is another lyrics from one of my bands. Uh, it was written for me because I went through heartbreak and she wrote me um a very beautiful love song and I'm glad it was

18:23a love song and not not [clears throat] a like go [ __ ] yourself song because it's just not who I am. But I want to dream everything. It could be to to me. In order to dream, you have to love. And in order to love, you have to dream. And so in order for like if I have a vision, a labor of love, then I have to dream it first before it ever comes true. So it to me it's also self love. To say I want to dream everything it could be is self- loveve. It's to aspire to your dreams and see them. Anyways, so I got both of

18:58those lyrics tattooed on my back. He he does the whole thing and then he like freaks out, sits me down. He's like, "So I you have a shattered heart rate is easier to mend." And I was like, "How did this happen?" At no point did I freak out at all, but I'm just like, "How did this happen?" And he like showed me everything printed out and what I okayed. And I guess when he when he sized it to fit my shoulder, it autofilled. [laughter] And so, uh, then he's like, I could put a heart, whatever you want. I'll do cover up, like, no charge. And I was like, I want

19:36an anatomical heart. And of course, it's small. Like, so he's like, no, that would be really hard for that size and the shading. And so, I literally I actually have a show and tell. I have some art behind me. But literally a week before um I had the tattoo session, I actually made art about that piece. Um so um uh this is it like it's a kintugi heart. I have to get further. It's

20:08Oh wow.

20:09Heart uh with a phoenix coming out of it. So

20:14the the art of like shattering ceramics and then re putting it back together with gold. So it's like and the the lyrics really resonate with me especially like this last year has been somewhat challenging for me. Uh it was the year of the snake so it was a lot of shedding. I had a lot of like relationships I had to leave and like re-evaluate myself. And so in a sense like everything broke, but it it showed me that there was like cracks in the framework to begin with. So now I get to rebuild it. I get to rebuild my heart the way I want it to be without those

20:53cracks or it has those cracks, but now it's more beautiful lined with gold. So anyways, so then I was like, so I turned to like and then I get a little sassy with my tattoo artist and I was just like, I want a I want a an anatomical heart dripping gold. And I showed him the piece and he's just like size. He's like, okay. And so while he's drawing it up, I called Charles. And Charles and I are like geeking out about this. We think it's like the best thing ever because that's what the lyrics mean. It's like this is not the end of me. I was broken from the start. I've

21:28yet to fall apart. Uh, A Shattered Heart's Easier to mend. Um, I've been here before, but I'm not running anymore. There's more lyrics to it. It's a beautiful, beautiful song. Um, and I listen to it a lot, and it has shaped me in a sense over this past year. Um, so it's very meta because it's my art inside of his art about his art. And and so [laughter] uh and it's literally the meaning of a song. Like if I if my tattoo artist had done like bad line work, I'd have walked out of there with bad line work. But because it got [ __ ] up so bad, it had

22:09to be rebuilt and so it was better. So like I come back in and I'm just like, "So I've been really leaning into happy accidents with my own art." And he's like, "Yeah, happy accidents." Like And uh then I basically explained what like I just explained to you to him and I'm like, "Don't you see how beautiful this is?" He's like, "No." And so for the next like two and a half hours, I tried to cheer up my tattoo artist and he broke. [laughter] He's just like uh you know, he's like, "Well, you could just tell people, you know, that uh you meant it to be this

22:49way." I was like, "No, I'm going to tell people that.

22:56Like I'm giggling the whole time. I'm having like the best time ever and he's having like the worst time ever. So

23:03at the very end I'm like what do I owe you? He's like you don't owe me anything. Like I I like he looked like he was going to cry. I'm like so I'm really happy with everything. I actually think like your mistake made it better. Like no one's mad at you. I talked to the artist whose lyrics it is. We both think it's better. We're geeking out about it. Like like please let me pay you. life. So, [laughter] so anyways, that's my story. So, yeah, with my own art, it's just you go with it. You feel it. If you make a mistake, you can paint over it or you just let it

23:34be. So, like I mean, even with music, just feel it. Like you can go back to your stems. It's actually probably easier with music than a painting uh or

23:44you know like so uh so that's what I have been telling my friend but also another thing I've been doing is kind of

23:55I guess um piggybacking off of the idea of like [snorts] inspiration kind of like uh feeding off of other people. Like for

24:08Charles did did that song and I felt moved to make something or my friend wrote those um

24:16wrote that song for me because I was going through a really hard time. Actually, she has a painting of mine in her house and she said she was staring at the painting channeling my energy when she wrote it and I think that's really sweet. And so then I ended up making a piece about that song. I guess it was really her vision, not mine. Um, more show and tell. [laughter]

24:39I love show and tell.

24:42Few people on the beach, two lovers on the beach holding hands, and then like a mirror. And so for I, my input was like I don't actually want to draw a mirror, but I could be their inner children. So that that's supposed to be their inner child. Uh, and so, um, yeah. So it's just like art feeds on itself. So, like going back to the tattoo, it's like, oh, that feeds on it. And actually, Charles remixed that song, the the I want to dream everything it could be. It's called Sacred M. John Ashton from Psychedelic First performs on it as well. Um, so, uh, I actually asked

25:22Charles to remix it. And I asked him to remix my heart because there's something very satisfying about someone, like asking someone to remix your heart. And he, and of course, Charles is like one of the biggest hearted people you'll ever meet. You can just feel his energy. He's just so sweet. And he was just like, he's like, "I'd be so honored. Thank you for entrusting me with your heart heart." And I'm just like, ah, just [clears throat] so sweet. way with your words. Um, so it just it it it feeds on itself. So anyways, again, I'm all over the place. All these tangents. Getting back to my friend

25:59who's having writer's block. He likes my art. He wants me to like I will have friends give me prompts and then I will

26:07see what materializes in my head. So him and I have decided that we're giving each other prompts and then we're both going to make art. He's going to make a song for me. I'm going to um uh make an art piece for him. So, it it also gets him out of his head instead of like, oh, I have to create something that's going to be a hit. Instead of like, oh, I'm just doing this for fun because we're doing this kind of thing back and forth. And it becomes really I find those art projects so fun because I also get to channel my friends energies into it. M

26:42uh so there's like when I do them the first one I did was for my the lead singer of magic wands. That's the one this one she was staring at. I was like give me a prompt. She's like I want something magical. I was like okay. So I put uh like uh like a spell book and out of the spell book comes all her lyrics and then her spirit animal is a fox and I'm a unicorn and has all the elements around it. Um, but then I also did one for Bat the um Brett uh the bass player of um the birthday massacre.

27:17So um him and I are really good friends. We actually have matching tattoos. Uh so uh I didn't know he went by bat until I uh well I asked him to give me a prompt and then like a week he was like let me think about it. And then a week later I already had it figured out what it was. But uh he when I was reading his pre the press release birthday massacre, he was listed as bat and I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." Because he has a bat tattooed on his hand. And so he also has like the symbols for the planets tattooed on his hands and then I have

27:48like the mother maiden crone and um alchemical sun and then I of Horus. So I did like a bat flying over a city and then like all those symbols from her hand. So, I just said it was my interpretation of our hands.

28:06So, I have a lot of fun. And then also like the one with, you know, the ones I just showed you, it's really fun those because then I'm like kind of channeling that them into it.

28:18So, I actually think like those pieces are actually more powerful. I have like two that I'm kind of working on right now from prompts that my friends gave me. And so like each piece I do, I make sure there's a piece of them in in there and a piece of me in there as well. So, uh, that's kind of where I am on my creative exploration right now is leaning into that.

28:40I really love that. I love the collaboration and like um, okay, to go full circle, I'm actually interviewing Charles next month. So, when you brought up Charles, I was like, I am totally going to have to talk to him about this. I'm [laughter] so excited. But my really weird tattoo. It was really funny when I called him. He's like, "What does your back say right now?" I'm like, "A shattered heart rate is easier than me." We're just like laughing our asses off like [laughter] uh Yeah. So yeah. Um

29:10I think that's I think that's something that's really amazing about um about art in general is its own language and own conversation that you can share with other people. Um, you know, like you were saying, like channeling other pe your friends energy, um, and bringing that in into your expression and and weaving it weaving it in and then seeing what they bring back to you, you know?

29:32So, it's like it like feeds on itself in a sense like I made something for my friend, she made something for me, then I made something for her again, and then I'm going to send a print off to her. Uh I sent a print off to to Charles as well. So like um I think he he was very honored by that. I mean people ner I mean it's it's very honoring when you uh someone you you move someone so much they make something like when someone makes a song for me like you're like I was the muse for that. Oh my god. like my friend that wrote me this song um

30:08Sacred Mirrors. It's a very beautiful song and I was going through a lot at the time. Um I it gave me I love unpacking music and sometimes it doesn't it's your interpretation sometimes is not what the artist interpreted as or whatever. Um, and so it was kind of funny when Dexi brought me this song and she like I knew she's I helped her write her her press release and uh stuff like that because she's like, "You know more about the song than me. It's your song." I'm like, "Well, I can tell you what I'm going through." But it was um it was a lot of fun for me to unpack. I

30:50actually have wrote up a whole thing um for the when the day it came out that went with the piece of art and yet like I listen to it and and every day I have like something else I learned from the song, you know, like

31:06be a lover you have to be a dreamer and to be a dreamer you have to be a lover. that that's something that came from that like hearing her song or even just her her and I bicker back and forth like in a very loving friend kind of best friend kind of way where she's like you're going to meet a guy someday and you're going to believe him forever and always. And I'm like no I'm not because forever is a lie because everything

31:33Uh, and one day it hit me uh that I was like, "Oh, I I have my own version of what forever and always is." Not in the sense that you're always with someone, but in a sense like an experience can forever change you and someone can always some you can always love someone. Actually, I wrote here, let me pull up what I wrote about that very um I put on my Facebook because I was like like I was like, "So, this is all Dexie Valentine's fault. We've been bickering for years about forever and always. I've been non-believer because forever, as we usually mean it, is a lie. Everything

32:17changes. Everything ends. Everything dies." But love in all forms has taught me something different. always can exist as long as you're not attached to outcome. Always with you doesn't mean always beside you. True love possess true love doesn't possess. It doesn't trap. It allows growth. Even when growth means space, distance or growing apart. Love that can't change from becomes attachment, control, nostalgia, fantasy. Real love evolves from present presence to memory, from intimacy to gratitude, from longing to quiet um recognition. You don't lose love just because relationship changes. Change is where love where true love lives. Some relationships awaken you. They change you forever and you get to carry what

33:11they awaken for the rest of your life. whether that person stays or goes, you don't lose the feeling because the outcome changes. Love isn't conditional on permanent. Love isn't owned. Love is in uh end love endures by transforming.

33:32So yeah. So there's been so many times I've called her and been like, I'VE UNPACKED ANOTHER LAYER of your song. So, uh it's yeah, I think being inspired by your friends and I think like channeling it or channeling the universe or uh

33:56it's really beautiful because you kind of learn from the art like she learned from my art, I learned from her art and it's kind of like this cyclical thing.

34:09Yeah, that's what I got.

34:11Yeah. No, I mean I think that's something that I I it's it's something like when you really feel a piece of art, whether it's visual or or music, it's like I feel like it taps into like a truth, right? It taps into like something that um and and and in in some cases it taps into something so deeply that other people really feel it, you know, and they're like, "Oh, I actually know what that feels like." And it's it's spoken very clearly where you're like, "Oh, wow. I I recognize that

34:46Yeah. I have to say like when I'm going through like troubled times, I like to listen to sad music. And it's not that I'm spiraling out of control. It's more of like they understand my pain.

35:01Yes. Yeah.

35:02Because uh the human condition is universal. Like we all we all we all know what grief feels like. We've all felt heartbreak, loss, you know, whatever it is. So, Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I I I think that uh you know, I really love that you um you know have been sharing really like what how the art really speaks to you and like how you express it as well. Um because I feel like um it's something that sometimes people I feel like if they are aspiring artists it takes some time to figure out like how how do I voice this? How do I express this? How do I write

35:50this? You know um but yeah

35:53just you just feel it. And I mean I know like I'm not like most labels and I think a lot of my bands really love me for this because I'm not going to try to change your art. Like it's not like I want you to make your hit. You're going to make your hit when you really feel it when you really allow yourself to dive into what your condition is. Like Lou Reed was not a good singer, but you could you could feel his energy. Sometimes it's not about the best voice. It's like when they scream their heartbreak, you're like, "Yeah, I [ __ ] feel that. I've

36:26been there. I know what that feels like." And it moves you. So like you you can't move your audience. like you can't connect to another person until you connect to yourself. That's just a universal truth like uh base level with with people like I I've seen this with you know friends or whatever.

36:47But also your art too like you have to connect to it has to mean something to you and it's otherwise it's not going to transfer over to someone else. they're not gonna it's so

37:00there's more to just having technique like oh you can make a beat like yeah you have technique or I could like you know like someone could draw like a landscape perfectly but it has no personality like you still have to have that raw feeling to it so there's a combination of like raw feeling and technique you need a little bit of both

37:20yeah absolutely yeah I definitely you know completely like resonate with that idea too cuz like I I've some of my favorite artists are not the best singers but oh my gosh like their music the way they are singing it just really like touches me. So yeah.

37:41And I think it comes from a place of just like the the rawness. I think just being able to embrace that rawness.

37:47Yeah. Like I have friends or uh you know musicians or whatever that are like I put out this like it this song just because and it's a weird one. Everyone likes this weird song that we made. I'm like yeah because that's where you know that's where your creativity really lied. You're like oh I'm going to they think it's the outlier that no one's going to get and it's the one they were most passionate about you know. Well, I I I actually was wondering because um you know, you have a lot of, you know, very well-known established artists on the on the label, but um when

38:22you're looking at new artists to to bring onto the label, um is that something that you just kind of sense where you're like, okay, I feel you you were talking about like I don't require them to have a hit, but if you're like, okay, I feel like this is something that has potential to really, you know, connect and express in a really authentic Okay.

38:42Yeah. I mean, the music has to move me for for uh there's also are we going to vibe? Uh because I I like to interview bands a bit more, have them meet the whole team. I think when we we first started out, like my mom and I, it was we're still, you know, fresh figuring it out. Sometimes we'd sign people and we didn't have as much of a relationship or rapport. And it's just good to know like, hey, you're you're signing, you know, your your art away for 15 years. Like this we're in a contractual relationship for 15 years, you know, like so do you do you really want to be in this

39:26relationship, you know, like because I'm going to work harder for people who appreciate me and we have this this back and forth like this creative energy, right? like um like when you truly believe in it like when I go to pitch you like my soul's behind it. So I think it's important to have that. I mean that's rare in a capitalist society. Um I try to I feel very lucky to have like this label because it is kind of like a family vibe. Like,

40:00my two full-time employees have been with us for 30 and 27 years. They've known me since I was seven and 10 years old. They're like, "Uncle, like this is not a replaceable thing." Um, like Jim, my label manager, we talk every day, you know, like that's that's really cool, you know, like you just uh so it it's a little more personal um feeling. And so like I I feel that same way with a lot of my my bands. I have personal relationships with them. you know, some of them become like really good friends of mine where it's like, yeah, we'll talk about your roll out and

40:40stuff, but how are you doing or how's the family or you know, like that's just um Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Actually, like you were talking about like especially in in a capitalist um culture, you know, and in the entertainment industry, no less. Like I feel like a lot of times um artists can be looked at as more like commodities and so it's amazing to know that there's a community that artists can feel like oh wow you look at me like a person and

41:13your art is a commodity you are a person and yeah I I mean horror stories too of certain level of exploitation that I think is not tasteful like oh um trying tell a story without like I have a friend who had like kind of a near-death experience earlier in her career and then like they wanted to use that as publicity and they're like, "Okay, this is a traumatizing experience. Why would I want to do that?" you know, like heard, you know, like and to me it's like you

41:54it needs to be up to the artist like I mean there's certain things I have control over but I want to make sure that that that still resonates with their integrity

42:07yeah so

42:09um because if it's literally their well-being like mentally, physically I mean I The entertainment industry has its own like kind of disgusting like oh you have to look a certain way or present a certain way and you know sex sells or whatever and I get it to some degree but at the same time it also like sickens me.

42:38I mean it depends if that's part of your art. I mean there's like IMX that's like that is their art. It's very erotic you

42:44Yeah. Uh, but if that's not your art, then you shouldn't have to get on, you know, stilettos and shake your tits or whatever. Like,

42:58I do not twerk at my art shows. I want people to look at my art. [laughter]

43:08Oh my gosh. Yes, agreed. I know. It's it's it's awesome. um like feeling that there are like you know proponents of that mentality um you know especially you know having experienced that um where you're like oh wow I I don't have to do that you can look at me as an artist you can look at me for my work um and knowing that there's people out there that are all for that um you know

43:36drama I mean that's what we I mean look at our current political system it's off of like drama And it's

43:44why can't we look at the substance of the things that people are doing rather than like I mean entertainment, but like our form of entertainment has gotten really sick. Like you're checking out the grocery store and they have those like shitty magazines. They're like, "Oh, this person went to rehab or this person put on weight or whatever." It's just like it's so gross. It's like

44:06we're all dealing with the human condition, right? like who at some point hasn't been out of control because they're dealing with a [ __ ] ton of pain or oh uh you know you your brother committed suicide and therefore you deal with your pain by eating too much like it's just sick.

44:26Yeah. You know, like everyone's just trying to deal and looking at other people's pain somehow.

44:36We're focusing on other people's [ __ ] then we can't grow as people. And it's that is disgusting. Like,

44:43we like we're all dealing with the human condition. And part of the human condition is that hopefully we're growing to be better versions of oursel. And so if I'm looking at this guy over here being a total [ __ ] like what does that tell about like why why am I focusing on their [ __ ]

45:00Though I will say now that I think about it, like uh I did have like a stupid amount of friend breakups last year. Just like I don't want you in my life. I'm done. like like I guess it's in to me it was like unveiling like I grew as a person and I learned what my self-worth was so therefore I I leveled up and my bar changed and so there's this thing that happens where like you know the trope your life flashes before your eyes when you die it's kind of like when a relationship dies the life your life flashes before your eyes and I've

45:38done more research on that it's just your subconscious basically dropping every time you are uncomfortable and you just remained silent to preserve the relationship. And I think as women, we're told to shut up and be pretty. And so like that gets into your heads. You're like, "Oh, okay. I'm just going to like let that slide or let someone be a a dick and I'm just done with that." And so sometimes like if some something really does disgust me and someone else, that means I there is a trait within me that can reflect back. So

46:13relationships were also mirrors for me. So then when the relationship died, a part of me died within those relationships. Like

46:22because that is not the person I want to be anymore. I'm leveling up and you're an [ __ ] So and I don't want that trait in my

46:32Yeah. Yeah.

46:34I mean, you can use it as self-reflection as long as you're not focusing on like, oh, that, you know, that's [ __ ] up. If you bring it back to the self, I guess.

46:44Yeah. Yeah. I like to think of our experiences with other people as as well reflections in a way, you know, because if you look at the idea of oneness and the fact that we're all connected, you

46:59Yeah. Yeah.

47:00Uh that's been showing up in my art too, like mirrors, uh love. I did I did a series on love. Um different types of love. There's eight words in in Greek for different types of love. Like I mean here we just have love or

47:17or being in love and love and there's kind of more nuanced to that. Actually I can do more show and tell. I think I have some of my love stuff.

47:28But it I mean all relationships are reflection. So they do teach us. Um, so so this one is stoga love. So it's it's family love.

47:43Uh, this one is love. So this is like flirtatious love, like when you first meet someone, you get butterflies or whatever. Um, aeros love. So of course like romantic love. Um, might be it. I do have like one self love. I don't know if I pull I did not pull that one. Uh, fla love. Um, so um

48:17I love how each one becomes even more richer and intertwined, you know.

48:24Oh, thanks. Yeah. So, um, but it all goes back to the self. I think I I actually have tattooed on my hound Fla and Filia love which I think are the most important. Uh cuz Flashia would be um self love. So if everything's a mirror, some people's love suck because they just don't love themselves or they're just shitty people. Sorry, I'm getting a little like [laughter] humanity. Um [laughter] uh but like you have to have a good center you know like to first and then I also think villia which friend love is really important. It's the basis like I think like aeros or like romantic love is actually kind

49:12of probably one of the lower frequencies of love be lust. So in order to have like a really like good aeros love relationship there has to be layers. There has to like uh you you have to have a friendship relationship first. That is like the most important. I actually had you know I've had relationships where it ends and then uh they they they're like well I no longer fit that. Um I'm it it was role dependent. So it's like oh I'm boyfriend you know and if it's not if it's real dependent I don't really feel like that's um

49:58and so you need layers if it's like agape which is uh unconditional. Um which is something I kind of struggled with for a while because like I said I had a lot of friend breakups and people I walk away from. And so I'm like what is agape? What does that mean? And it kind of goes back to that that whole thing I just read to you like you know you let people come and go like as long as you don't hold on to outcome loving someone doesn't mean clinging because that's attachment and then when attachment collapses it doesn't like that's different like that's that's holding on to the um

50:41actually wrote something. I'm gonna see if I can find it. Uh, here we go. I I like writing. I'm I'm actually like dyslexic and my writing's horrible. Unless you can make my heart skip a beat and then I'm like, I'm going to go write something really poetic. [laughter] So, uh, if a relationship can't withstand change, then it was never love. Love is, uh, love that is possessive, conditional, or role dependent cannot withstand change. friends who vanish when you set boundaries. They loved access, not you. Person who disappears when you disengage. He loved the role, not the person. That's not love failing. That's attachment collapsing when it's no

51:27longer being fed.

51:29So, um,

51:32so yeah, I think there just there's just layers to like relationships and and the types of love that are then projected onto those relationships. So um but if it's just role dependent like oh I just I'm boyfriend you know I mean true love should be able to change forms part of love is growing and if you can't grow then it's not love it's stagnation and so even in loving someone sometimes the best choice is to either part ways or give them space and that's that in itself is unconditional you can still hold love in your heart and them not be around because that's the best choice for the growth of the

52:20relationship or the the individual So, I've done very deep dive on that stuff, you know, you just I don't know.

52:32I feel like that comes from a a place of of of deep wisdom and experience and reflection, you know. Yeah. Um, it gives me something to to make art about, too. So, um,

52:47And also just be a better friend, not just like a a lover, but like a better a better person, a better person to myself. When you understand self- loveve, a better friend to other people and just uh more capacity for love. Some people never people there are some people that go through life dead. We talked about this pre pre-talk. Some people don't have the capacity for love because of trauma. Um, and some of us have to learn it on our own. And so, um, it's just, yeah, it's been an interesting topic for me.

53:24So, um, yeah, I think it's the main reason worth living. So, [laughter] uh I mean like what would I be without my friends or my community? Um I I really can't do it alone, you know.

53:39Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean like we were talking about earlier. Um it's like you you go for a period of time where you're like, "Okay, I'm going to be alone. Wait, I actually need a hug."

53:52Yeah. I I need people. I need to know like my community is there. Yeah. Like

53:58so um human connection is important. You know we all desire to to be seen and be loved and be held. It's also one of the most terrifying things because we all nobody leaves this world unscathed. No one leaves this world without trauma you know like

54:20thing. And so when we love, we also make big risks to open up our heart. But uh I've been really into the saying uh like I'd rather have a broken heart than an empty heart. I actually got that from like from the birthday massacre. Uh I was listening to the song Rain uh while crying from a broken heart. And I'm listening to it and it like it's like uh from my broken heart and it's like sad music and then from her empty heart and I was listening to that I'm like I'd rather have a broken heart than an empty heart because

54:55like one one means you're feel and the other one's like you're dead you know you you can't you also can't have the capacity to love like even something I've learned in having a broken heart is it's that is something I generated it belongs to me like that shows me my capacity like I get to integrate that back to myself and and regenerate it to my friends or my life or the the dream I want to create. So, um I don't think uh even in heartbreak I think I'd just do it all over again. No, because it's also that also gives me an insight into growth. As we talked

55:42earlier, like the darkness shows us some very interesting things if we're willing to go down that path. Like Young says, you don't self-actualize. You you can't just choose to self-actualize. you have to go through like a very traumatic experience or go through hardship to go through a dark night of the soul.

56:04So you you can't self-actualize without

56:08Um so I think that shows us something that you know you make mistakes within relationships. You're like oh what do I need to learn? How do I level up?

56:19Yeah. It's, you know, as you were describing it, I was actually thinking about the experience of the roller coaster where it's like exhilarating but also terrifying and then you're like, "But wait, I think I want to do that again." [laughter]

56:36That makes sense. [snorts] Yeah. Uh yeah. Some

56:42uh And then there's also some people that are too afraid to ever live. So what's the the Yeah. like you have to make risk. Um I don't know. Yeah.

56:55Yeah. Yeah. They're the ones that ride the trolley. [laughter]

57:01They're ones that go to work every day and their life a little bit and are in loveless relationships or maybe never fully understand the capacity for love or, you know, things like that. So, I mean, yeah. Um,

57:20I've dated boring people before.

57:24Yeah. [laughter]

57:30I I really love that you've bringing you're you've been bringing in um lyrics from from your different artists that have really touched you and I think that's so awesome that you're you really listen to it. Um, I think sometimes, you know, when you listen to a song, not everybody listens to the lyrics and it's it's really special that you can actually hear them.

57:52I was actually just having a conversation with my friend Brain the other day about about that. I mean, everyone's brains work different and I think I'm

58:01neurode divergent. He's neurode divergent. We're just neurode divergent in different ways. But uh like he's like I can't unpack like we're both dyslexic but my his brain is like oh when I read stuff it's just like I have like you know 20 different definitions for every single word and I'm trying to unpack that. So like I'm not going to unpack a song and me I'm like I love unpacking songs like because also it's going to have a different meaning to me than someone else per se. like even my art's going to have a different meaning to someone else because you're you're projecting your own experience onto that. But I I like

58:37the layered meanings to stuff and then what it means to you. Um actually with some of the art piece like with the um the trade I'm doing with my friend uh for he gave me lyrics and then um then I have to unpack his lyrics and so that's that's also fun because like it's going to have it has slightly different meaning to him than it has to me. Then how am I going to interpret that? So, put that into a visual landscape.

59:13I really love that collaboration. I mean, I feel like that's like one of the like coolest things about about our the community, right? Is the collaboration and um and seeing how people translate things and seeing how it transforms, you

59:27Yeah. Outlier because I don't actually make music, but I'm still like, how can I collaborate with my artists? and just like visuals to their their uh

59:39their lyrics or and then they make lyrics to my visuals or you know I give them a prompt or whatever you know so

59:50so cool yeah I I I feel like um I mean it's like you you can go about like making things in a certain way and you start it's can be become routine you know where you're like oh I'm I do the same thing in the same way, but like when you actually shake things up and someone gives you like a prompt where you're like, "Okay, we're going to write about like unicorns, you know, or whatever it is, right?" [laughter]

1:00:16Well, in this scene, everyone knows me as a unicorn. I have a little like unicorn tone.

1:00:20Oh, I love it so much. [laughter] I knew I was in good company. My friends refer to me as the unicorn goth or whatever. Yeah, I'm I'm a unicorn, [laughter]

1:00:41but I will take it. Um, yeah.

1:00:46so are do you have any um like festivals or anything that you're going to be traveling to see in the upcoming future?

1:00:54Yeah, I I'm going to go to Wave Gotham Trefin um this year. Uh, so do you know the guys from Mechanism at all?

1:01:05We love Mechanism. We've played there before. So I

1:01:08Yeah, the story I just told was about Brain. He's in He's in the crew.

1:01:11I love Brain. Brain's awesome.

1:01:12Yeah. Actually, oh, I another show and tell. I actually made an art piece for him. Uh, where because I've been we just had Chinese New Year and last year there's a snake and I had a really hard snake year which is shedding. And so I just started making all these zodiac stuff. And so it's his zodiac and my zodiac and then like um his spirit animal and my spirit animal. And the funny thing about this is when I show it to people, people are like, "Are you dating?" And I'm like, "No, I just I just picked a friend." [laughter] So I like go up to Brandon. I'm like,

1:01:41"Hey, what's your zodiac?" And he was like, [laughter]

1:01:48"So um this is the one I made for

1:01:53Oh, wow. I'm a earth dragon.

1:01:59Oh my gosh, that's beautiful.

1:02:01Came by the other day to pick it up and he was like the first person I saw after a week and a half of like, I've locked myself in the house and now I'm sad. I'm like, you are going to give me a hug.

1:02:17Brain gives good hugs, too. He does. Um anyhow um so again like channeling off people's energy it's it's fun. It's gives you like more drive. So going back to love gives you drive. So

1:02:35yeah absolutely. Yeah. It is something I love about f certain festivals. Um I've never been to Wave Gothic. I really would that's a dream one day that would love to be able to go out there. Uh, Mechanism is so special because of the community. Like you it feels like a family like when you when you go there.

1:02:53It's my home crew because I'm here in Seattle and so like like during the summer like that crew and I will go like I've got a friend who has he has a farm like 45 minutes outside of Seattle and the Snow Pony River runs through it and so we bas he lets me hang out on his property and bring whoever I want. Uh, so we get breachfront property with no [ __ ] So, [laughter] so we we do that all summer long and stuff like that. But, um, yeah, the uh they're taking a year off because it's they've been doing this for like 18 years. Uh, they'll come back for the

1:03:3020th. Uh, so I'm going with them to Wave Gotham Truff. And so I think like um Gen Cab and Aesthetic Perfection are playing at Out of Line Weekender. So I'm gonna fly into Berlin, probably do that. And then I have some friends in Sweden who have offered to let me stay at their place. So have a friend right outside of Stockholm and then some friends right out outside of Malmo. So I'll probably do that in between and then go to Wave Gotham Treen. So, um that is my plan. Um I can only do like three festivals a year and then I'm just like it's a lot

1:04:12of travel too. So I don't envy my bands touring. I really don't like it's not So, I will say that um uh so I I probably will go back to Cold Waves. Um so, um and I don't know, last year I went to Terminus. That was fun. Um I haven't been to Dark Force yet, but Dark Force kind of falls right around way Gotham Trap is I don't

1:04:48Oh, I see. Gotcha.

1:04:51Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we we've we've played Dark Force and it was awesome. Like we had a really really good time there. But um yeah, again, very community oriented, so it's really awesome like that. Yeah.

1:05:03Yeah. I' I haven't I haven't been to Terminus. Eric keeps telling me about it. He's like, "It's so great." He's like, "You guys need to do Terminus." So, bucket list for sure. I've heard great things about it.

1:05:14Yeah. has the same kind of vibe um where it's community kind of and you get to know the people throwing it and stuff. So um

1:05:23yeah um but yeah, last year was my first year was fun because I ended up getting really sick. I think everyone got really

1:05:33I think everyone

1:05:34it happens

1:05:35caught the co.

1:05:38Um yeah

1:05:41yeah festivals and and conventions have a way of spreading plague unfortunately.

1:05:50um but that's that's what I have which reminds me I do need to like go book my flights to like Europe and stuff and figure that all out. So

1:05:59yeah for Wave Gothic.

1:06:01Yeah. I've never been. And it's it's kind of it's such a big festival. Like I actually when the mechanism guys kind of brought it up to me, I was like, "Yeah, it's good going with you." Like I wouldn't want to go to a festival that big by myself. I feel like

1:06:17having like people to kind of come back to like

1:06:25Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:29yeah, it seems like it's a big overwhelming thing. So it definitely helps to have buddies that know how to navigate for sure.

1:06:37So both of us have been so we'll figure it out. Um

1:06:42yeah, it's really cool. So one of my friends played Wave Gothic um I think a couple years ago and he was just telling me he was like it was like a dream come true. He's like this is the one thing that we've wanted to do. Um, and he finally did it. And I was, it was awesome to hear his experience of like getting to experience it. And he was mentioning that it was like a whole city thing, like the whole city like like is involved, which I think is amazing. So,

1:07:07I've heard that. So, I have to report back at some point. So, [laughter]

1:07:13we need to follow up so you can you can

1:07:19Um, yeah.

1:07:21Yeah. Well, um, in terms of like, you know, asking actually about the label, um, because I feel like, you know, it's just interesting in our in our current, um, well, digital age. Um, it's it's I think things have really shifted in terms of what labels do for artists versus what artists do for themselves. And um like as a label, do you um actually like um take ownership of the marketing or is that something that the artists actually own themselves like in terms of like how they

1:07:55Yeah, we definitely market. We have a a PR person on on staff who who um writes up our press releases and does magazines and stuff. I tend to head up the social um aspect of it. Um, we also do like pitching to playlists for Spotify, Apple, all the all the digital streaming providers, ESPs for short. Um, so yes, uh, we we help with the, um, promotion for sure. Um, yeah.

1:08:28Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:31But yeah, the landscape has changed a lot um, over the past couple years for Um, it'd be nice if you know streaming providers actually like made livable wages [laughter] like it's only a livable wage if you're like the top of the top, you know. So,

1:08:52it's like they do keep like upping their prices but don't pay their artists anymore which is really sad but

1:09:00late stage capitalism.

1:09:05Yeah. No, I mean I it's it is interesting because I think you know obviously like going back to like decades ago when um it's like a a strong reliance on physical media on physical um marketing and promotion um you know versus now where it's like okay so many things have become digital in a virtual landscape um and so you know and you guys have been around for for a really long time so you've seen the shifts of different eras in terms of approaches is so um yeah I mean I think it's amazing that Metropolis has stood the test of time.

1:09:42Yeah it's over 30 years 32 years. Yeah.

1:09:48Back then it was just then it Yeah. Then there was digital download then in some ways streaming did bring back the music industry to some degree because digital download was just I'm just gonna take this for free you know.

1:10:03Yeah. And then, you know, physical. We still do physical and that tends to be more of like a collector's. Some people buy vinyl just so that they have a collector's item and you can never play it. Bies. I saw the Bies cup. [laughter]

1:10:21Can you tell how much I tour?

1:10:25I went to B first time like New Year, like New Year'sish. I went down to Texas. Uh yeah. Um I'm really good friends with the bass player of Urban Heat. Uh he his band who's playing and then also Night Rituals which is on my label. He was playing in San Antonio. Uh so I went down there and then was had to go to a B. It was an experience for sure. There's just so much going on. You're like kind of like Costco brain. You're like There's a game we like to play where everybody's like, "What's in your BE bag?" Because we all have a very

1:11:08different experience. Like, we disappear for a little while, we come back to the van, and then it's like, "Okay, what did you get?" And it's always different.

1:11:16Bies has really good hot sauce. I am a hot sauce lover. I have a mini fridge in my house just of hot sauce. Like, I have like 50 types of hot sauce. So, I actually was really impressed with Buckyy's hot sauce. The cheddar, the hot

1:11:34I'll have to try this.

1:11:36But beef jerky, too. That that's kind of what I went for when I was there. And then their hot food I you know, but I haven't tried the the the cheddar one, but yes, I love their hot sauce. It's so

1:11:50Yeah. Yeah.

1:11:53yes. next time. I think I've already gone through a like a bunch of it, but they they met my mark. So, [laughter]

1:12:05yeah, I know. It's It's like I feel like it's kind of like a requisite thing like when I first heard about it where people are like, "You have to experience Bies." And I'm like, "What is what about it?" I'm like, "I feel like you have you really do have to have the experience because it's kind of hard to put into words." Yes.

1:12:25yeah, but yes, Bies,

1:12:32I didn't get into like get like, you know, big teddy bears and whatever, but I'm like I just have that stuff. It's just extra. I don't like chachkis in I Yeah, I'm like my house is already cluttered. I don't need more. I wish I was a minimalist. Just throw it all out. I know.

1:12:54The [ __ ] you own ends up owning you. That's the existential crisis I have every time I move.

1:13:02Oh my gosh. Yes. [laughter]

1:13:06I feel like traveling a lot definitely puts it into perspective where you're like, "What am I actually going to bring with me?" And that's technically really all I need,

1:13:16right? Like, yeah.

1:13:18Traveling, I try to travel as light as possible. Like I never check a bag. I don't trust airlines with my bag. Also, it's in and out. I don't like if I've been traveling all day, I don't want to wait another hour to get my baggage, you know? So, it's just whatever I can put on my back, two backpacks, and just go, you know.

1:13:40Um, and yeah, keep it simple. though.

1:13:45It's kind of It's kind of how you're able to to especially on tour like you you really do have to keep things pretty simple because you have very limited space, you know? So, there's just only so many things that you can bring with

1:14:00Though, I'm a hobbit. I need my spices from the Shire. Like, I do have to bring my spices and my hot sauces. So,

1:14:08you like spicy. Yeah, me too. So, Oh, I just went out to like lunch with one of my friends the other day. like at a Thai place and I'm like three. I think three is decent and spicy. He's like, I want a five. And even the waiter was like, you want a five? [laughter]

1:14:25I was like, damn, that's uh like I I also want to taste my food, but that's you know, because at some point you don't you're like [snorts]

1:14:38No, it's pure heat at that point. Yeah.

1:14:41Yeah. Yeah. I I do really like um tasting hot sauces. Um but like there's a certain threshold where you're like I can't feel the flavor anymore. I And I can barely feel my mouth. So yeah,

1:14:55with having a mini fridge full of hot sauce, that does happen because I'll have like barbecues or whatever and I bring out all the hot sauces and then after a while you start because so many different spices have gone into your mouth. You kind you you're going to miss the nuance of like, you know, a pair being in that one, you know? So then you have to wait it out and come back later. So, you'll have to come to me and we'll we'll just hot sauce all day.

1:15:25Yes, please. [laughter] I started making making them and also pickling and I put like peppers in my pickles. Spicy. Yes. So, yeah.

1:15:36Cool. Yeah. I'm a big foodie. So,

1:15:40Well, Seattle's so great. There's just so many options in Seattle. So, yeah. So, um I I was I was wondering like um you know in in terms of like aspiring artists, we were talking about this earlier. Um for an artist like just starting out, you know, just beginning. Um like what advice would you give to them if they're like, "Okay, Nina, like I'm trying to start my project. Like how do I get started?" Like what's what what what are some things that you would tell them? Um, well, I mean, now it's easier to get it out there, so you just, you know, you can put on Spotify or

1:16:20whatever. Um, I definitely wouldn't like drop a whole album at once. There's like the the trickling and stuff. Also, if you are shopping around for a label and you have like your whole album out and you're like, I want you to release this. It's harder to to like pitch it, I guess you could say. like there's a whole process we go through with press and pitching to the streaming providers and stuff like that. So sometimes they'll be like, "Oh, can you now put this out?" And I'm like, "Well, you kind of I can't it it's harder for me. Like I can't go to press once the album's already out."

1:16:57And then I can't go back to the streaming providers be like, "Put this on a playlist."

1:17:01Um, so yeah,

1:17:03I would at least say like you can drop like drop things one at a time. play in front of people as much as um because that's where you're going to be picking up a lot of your bandaids is touring. I touring really does help a

1:17:23And then having social media presence, of course. Um gota I know a lot of my bands have a hard time with the social media stuff and I do too. Like my my shit's pretty much private. My Instagram's public because I put my art and stuff on that. Um, but I like to keep it pretty private in general. Um, so, uh, so I get it. So, some of my bands are like, "This is very tedious to me." So,

1:17:55we are in a content age where people have attention spans of goldfish.

1:18:05short real gonna come back tomorrow and post this interview and I'll be like two hours long and people be like two hours long. Can you post two minutes? Give me the condensed version, right? I think it depends. like I, you know, I've I've I've I've been experiencing people that actually really want to go down rabbit holes and really want to like experience, you know, things that have um I guess you spend a little bit more time with it. Like I feel like that's a really cool way to get to know people. I mean, I personally love listening to podcasts because I get to hear entire conversations.

1:18:51um you know so yeah but um I think that's that is something that you were talking about like with social media it can be very challenging for people and for artists that just want to make their art you know it is absolutely something where it's sort of like well how do I make how do I make that like how do I make that part of my expression in a way that feels good for me

1:19:14that's kind of what I tell my artists too is like it should be like you know because no one wants to sell out in that type of way where it's just, you know, like because some social media it's like it's the equivalent to watching someone getting kicked in the groin over and over again. Like you can go down rabbit holes of just scrolling and be like what am I even looking at, right?

1:19:36So I think it should it should at least resonate with your art, you know? So but finding content to go along with that, either making a short video or a photo or whatever, but it should resemble whatever you're trying to

1:19:57Yeah, absolutely. I think that's where collaboration can be really fun because like especially if you get to collaborate with visual artist where you guys can come up with things together where it's either a music video or album cover or whatever the case, it's like you can start creating like aspects of that that you can share on your socials as well. I think that probably is one approach, you know.

1:20:22For sure.

1:20:22Yeah. Yeah. But um I guess another question then for for um for artists is like at what point is it appropriate to think of a label um you know cuz I mean there there's different labels in the world and I'm sure there's just different ones that are appropriate for an artist that fit that's a good fit. Um, and so in some artists case it's like well you know they never really do fit into the label mold. So it's like how do you find like that pathway where if there is a label out there like you

1:20:59just reach out uh like

1:21:02we have on our um on our web page like where you can submit stuff. Um, actually one of my friends I was talking to who's has this writer's block that we're kind of trading stuff with, he he hit hit us up and sent us music. He is not signed to us right now. He's actually completely outside of our genre like uh I would say it sounds like postal service uh but like like electronic pop postal service. Really good. I listened to it. I loved it and I was like,

1:21:39"Let's have a conversation."

1:21:41Um, and we had a um I even asked him, I'm like, "Why did you pick a goth label?" He's like, "Oh, my my, you know, bandmate thought it would be good to reach out to you guys." And he's like, "Okay." But as we've gotten to know each other and basically the conversation never ended. Him and I just like text all the time and talk about art and whatever. So, it's definitely like a good relationship we're building. Um, but what I I've been making playlists on my own for fun. I I actually this whole thing started with like conversation I had with Brain. We were talking about the song that was

1:22:14written for me. It's the beautiful love song. He's like, "I thought you didn't believe in love." And I was like, "What type of heartless [ __ ] do you think I am?" Like I'm like, "I love you." I was like, "I don't believe in forever and always." If that's what you're thinking. And he was like, "Uh, so anyways, I made a play. It started with a a playlist called Forever and Always Does Not Exist." And it's a very playlist. So I sent it to this friend and I was like, "Just to let you know it's a sad playlist." He's like, "I only listen to sad." And music. I'm like,

1:22:48"That's why you applied for for a god label." Like [laughter] even though you're like electroopal service, that's why.

1:23:01you can't you can't take the goth out of the kid. [laughter]

1:23:05I made one uh which is uh I'd rather have a broken heart than a shattered heart. And that one is my masterpiece because there's a lot of there's a lot of avenues you can go down in that gen like that concept. So, you can be like what what draws my heart to something. It could be seduction. I kept going down the rabbit hole of like being broken and damaged. And so I ended up constructing the whole playlist uh the way uh um a trauma bonding relationship would be. So it starts off with like seduction. Well, first soft starts off with the song it was inspired

1:23:44by which was Rain by um the birthday massacre and then it comes in with seduction and then and then it's just like now you're broken and then as soon as you start feeling sad I remind you why you're here. You're here for love and then it just starts the whole cycle over and over again. So that's my um so I've been having a lot of fun with playlists, just my personal ones and like coming up with fun concepts I guess. Um but I'm also really into psychology so I was like oh I'll just do this weird one anyways. Anyhow. Yeah,

1:24:23I love it. It's like it's like its own Then I also off of being inspired by brain, I have one called What Type of Heartless [ __ ] Do You Think I Am? And all my favorite love songs. [laughter]

1:24:38I know. He's like,

1:24:39"That's pretty great."

1:24:41Love. I'm like, "Have you seen my art? That's like the main thing that I [laughter] talk about. I thought you didn't believe in love. I don't want to meet the person who doesn't believe in love." I'm like, anyways. [laughter]

1:24:58Or maybe they're in transition into becoming a person that believes in love.

1:25:05Well, you can also be so jaded. I mean, that I mean, people get jaded. That that

1:25:11That's true.

1:25:12Very true. Um, but even if you are jaded, hopefully you still have some sort of love in your life, even if it isn't like romantic love.

1:25:23I said, you know, I needed a hug after a week and a half of locking myself house and doing nothing but art. This is this is what my life purpose is. And I was like, you also need people.

1:25:40it's it's true. It's true. We can't we can't do without each other. It is absolutely true.

1:25:48I can show you some more stuff I got. Um

1:25:54this one is on the life and death cycle. So it's like I've been kind of like obsessed with

1:26:04with uh I guess death as like an insight for rebirth. Um, like I said, last year was a quite trying time, I guess, for me. And like I let a lot of things die in my life, but they were no longer serving me. So, it's kind of like you need a clean slate, you need um compost in order for life to grow. Actually, last night I was at a goth show, a goth monthly, and they had a tattoo artist there, and they had like flash art, and so there was a skull and then the flowers, and so I had them put it together. So, I actually got the life

1:26:42death cycle tattooed on me last night on my foot.

1:26:46What? There's like a the lights in the way. So, here there there you go.

1:26:52Oh, okay.

1:26:54I'm sure no one's done that on an interview before. Anyways, [laughter] But I felt like that was very goth. I'm like, I'm at a goth show. I want the life death cycle because like it doesn't have to be like I mean grief is hard, right? Like that's hard. But I think even in like even in losing someone they're like in in actual death sometimes their presence like grief is just a reflection of how deeply you loved like otherwise you wouldn't you wouldn't have grief. So, uh, even in that, like in people I've lost phys like physically is that their essence still lives with me. Like

1:27:44you get to you can take on part of their personality that was very beautiful, right? Um, but even in like what I went through in the past year where I had to leave relationships that I don't feel like I was treated right and I let the the the young part of myself die within those relationships. It allowed me to grow. I now have space for other things in my life that give me purpose. I get to reflect on who that person was that I'm letting go so that I can be the woman I'm meant to be instead of the scared child.

1:28:22um like it doesn't have to be like a bad

1:28:28So um like sometimes it's about celebrating the person and the person's life and what they brought you and knowing that grief is just a reflection of how deeply you loved Yeah, absolutely. I I I love that you brought in the Phoenix. I feel like um that's definitely been a theme. Um and um well, we have Phoenix actually in the chat. Um Phoenix has been joining us. Um but I I I I love the idea of like the rising from the ashes and the creation that follows and the cycle

1:29:05um you know, the perpetual cycle that goes, you know. Yeah, we touched on that quite a a bit like that the darkness gives you room to grow and actually I had to come to a conclusion within the last couple days because I'm really into like okay I'm going to learn from this past year though I have to say I'm ready for like actually it's been things have be to stable stabilize for me in my life which is great

1:29:35um but at some point I was just like can these life lessons be over why Why do they all have to drop at the same time? But like grow uh I think darkness gives us it can be a port portal to our subconscious and it can be a portal for growth if we're willing to look at it. But growth, this is the conclusion I growth doesn't always have to have to happen in the

1:30:02So like right now because I'm talking about compost, right? Like right now I'm on like all these things have died. So right now I'm on luscious soil and I get to plant these seeds, right? Like I get to I actually kind of did hit a breaking point at one point. Actually when I drew the the death piece, there were so many things in my life I had to let go of that. I again locked myself in the house for a couple days and just cried and made this painting. And then I had to like reassess like okay, who's my inner circle? what are the things that are

1:30:35important to you?

1:30:36And then you plant those seeds. And so those things are growing right now. So so it doesn't always growth doesn't always have to happen in the darkness. Sometimes it can happen from having loving relationships. And so like I guess at some point I had to give myself permission to maybe not suffer. So, um, but it was good in the sense of like now I really feel like my inner circle is solid that I'm no longer that person and I'm no longer going to take [ __ ] you know, like I'm no longer to be going to become silent because I was told to be silent and be pretty or

1:31:13whatever like compromise myself to save a relationship. Like if you have to compromise yourself to save a relationship and that was conditional love and that's not really love and that's I guess what I'm looking for in all my relationships has to be meaningful. Um I mean there is a place for you know acquaintances you go to parties you you know certain people but you also need to know like who are your your people.

1:31:38Yeah absolutely. I feel like that when when things fall away, it gives you the opportunity to to redefine, you know, where you're like, I can actually redraw that. Um because you were talking earlier about like, you know, the the accidental art, right? And and the redefinition of things.

1:31:57Yeah. It's happy accident.

1:31:58I'm I'm quoting Bob Ross. So, anyways.

1:32:04Oh, yay. But even life has a way of you know uh ju just lean into it you know like

1:32:14that's yeah

1:32:16something not meant to be so

1:32:21yeah I mean absolutely I think that um you know it's sort of like um it's it's sort of the I guess the idea of almost like the radical acceptance of just like okay there is going to be darkness there's going to be suffering that's part of the experience And you know on the flip side in allowing that it's like it kind of opens opens the cracks open your heart up a little bit more to be able to like grow you know.

1:32:47Yeah. I also think like my brokenness is what also what makes me compassionate

1:32:53those cracks in my heart or the kintugi or whatever you want to to say it's like yeah that gives me more compassion. that gives me more depth uh more capacity for I mean it's you can either let it break you or you can make it define like you actually uh I got this from brain too like uh I had a a weird New Year's and I knew I was going to go into a weird New Year's and he's like how like how's the drama and then I kind of explained or whatever and I was like and then I was like I am not a victim of my story and

1:33:28he's like uh He repeated that back to me and was like, "That is very poetic. I like that." And I'm like, "I'm glad he pointed that out to me because then it became like a mantra in my head. I'm not a victim of my story." Like, you can have all these weird things happen. Like, if any, like the the New Year story was just kind of funny watching other people's [ __ ] shows. But when people are like, "I'm so sorry." I'm like, "I didn't get involved. I just watched other people be [ __ ] shows." Um, but it's just like a good reminder, you know, like I am not a victim of the

1:33:56story. I'm a warrior of it, you know, like how you frame and what words you in a sense are are magic or like like I do believe in the law of attraction to a certain degree. I'm not going to like manifest a Ferrari outside my house. I don't quite believe that. I I'm also like a white person in a first world country. Like I I have the power to change my mind and the world around me changes because of that. So, like if I'm I mean I think it's just you can feel that like you mean an energetic vampire. You're like I want to stay away from you. You're Debbie Downer

1:34:33and you annoy me. Like like there is something to be said about what energy you put out will come back. And so it's like I don't want to be a victim. I don't like that is not my story.

1:34:47Yeah. Absolutely. I really like the idea of of [clears throat] having that power to to write your story, you know.

1:34:59Yeah. I think that's something like as as as artists, like I think that um you know, no matter what experiences that you go through, you have that power to alchemize. And then you know really think about the framing of it like how how is this story going to unfold in my in my telling of it you know and that's and that's has to do with the way you talk to yourself as well. Yeah.

1:35:23You know,

1:35:24yeah. Go back to heartbreak. Like, did I grow? Did I learn? Did I become a different person? Like, yeah, cool. Would I do it all over again? Yeah. You know, like uh these things teach you something. Um, as long as you don't like end up in like, you know, an actual um, uh, trauma bonding relationship or something like where you can, you know, heartbreak with, you know, reasonable people, you know. [laughter]

1:35:58Oh, I feel like this is another playlist that's brewing. [laughter]

1:36:03Oh, do I need to heartbreak with people?

1:36:06Yes. Yes, [laughter]

1:36:09I get really creative and I'll put it on my Facebook to be like people give me give me stuff to listen to so that it that goes along with this theme and it it becomes quite fun for me actually. So, um yeah,

1:36:22I love it. I love it. I I I love playlists so I will have to go down this rabbit hole but yeah I always love listening to my

1:36:31Yes, please.

1:36:32Okay. Yeah. Um because I feel like there's an art to it too. Like you know, you can't uh you can't just be like super sad or like even my uh the first one I made which was Forever and Always doesn't exist. Uh like it ends with uh From My Hand by V&V Nation. Absolutely the saddest song on the whole entire like playlist because like I don't want you to just cry right from the beginning now that we're done. Now that we've done the grand finale, now you get to cry. Like there is some art to like Yeah. how how you how you want to form it or like how like you

1:37:15know or like even though I I I structured it as an abusive relationship. There's a reason why that structure works because you can't be sad all the time. Like you get so sad and you're like, "Well, I have to pull you back in somehow." Yeah. [laughter]

1:37:34So, you're not just there crying the whole time. You have to have highs and lows. So,

1:37:44Lightness, please, as well. [laughter]

1:37:46Especially if you have a song right in the middle of it, like this is why my heart beats the way it does. And yes, I know that in the end I died for love.

1:37:57Yes. [laughter] We need our rolling credit songs, right? Well, um, Nina, I wanted to thank you for for taking the time and and sharing your beautiful, magical rainbow unicorn self with us. It's been such a joy.

1:38:20Thank you.

1:38:21Like truly uh you're so inspiring. I I absolutely love your art and your perspective and and your wisdoms that you've been willing to share with us.

1:38:32Thanks. Yeah, I philosophize and unpack way too much. So, at least at least it goes to good use at some point. So,

1:38:41I beg to differ on the too much. I'm like more please.

1:38:46I have another brain story. Yeah. Like because I was this last year has been a lot. So like he's like for most of my friends I have to be like hey maybe you should like like unpack that or you know um for you I would say maybe less like because there is a point where you can be too much in cycle analyzing and then be like okay maybe you should just go have fun with your friends. So,

1:39:19I think there's definitely a balance to be had, you know. I think there's definitely um you know, it's a bike. There's a time and place for for both, you know, and I think it's it's important to really honor each space that you're in when you're in it.

1:39:34Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

1:39:36I appreciate you reaching out and uh the offer still stands. Come come by, have some hot sauce. Um

1:39:42Yes. Oh, [laughter]

1:39:46I'm so there. Yeah. Well, um thank you again. Thank you everybody for for tuning in and for um your wonderful, lovely presence. We're always grateful. Um it's such a joy to be able to do these and to have chats with friends who are so inspiring. You're doing so much for our community. Um you know, really really appreciate um the love that you put in. um and and who you are in our world. So yeah, thank you so much and and thank you everyone.