Ian Ross, in full

0:00And can we talk about your new album?

0:03Oh, yeah. Sure. Of course. Thank you very much. It's uh it was it took a lot out of me for the year and a half or so that I was working on it. So, I'm I'm kind of glad it's over with to a degree.

0:16Um, but it was it was a lot of fun to work on, but of course also stressful at the same time. But I'm I'm glad it's finally seeing the light of day. If you don't mind me asking, what was what was stressful about it?

0:30Oh, um, pretty much everything. Uh, does this sound sound the way that I think it should sound? Um, is does this mix sit correctly? Um, and this is just the musical aspects, by the way. Um,

0:45the obviously we we talked about the mixing. Um, and just trying to do something that I felt was an improvement on things that I had done in the past because that tends to be something I I really strive for. Each album I want to be a noticeable improvement. Um, whether that's in production quality or in you know, better melodies or um, you know, harder sound. Um, I put a lot of I put a lot of emphasis on trying to make those improvements from album to album. And I'm not always successful. Uh, but that's that's something I go for. Now, when it comes to like the lyrics and the

1:22concept of the album, that was that was even harder because I was trying to get some things out that were very personal in a way that would make sense to other people. Um, but not be overly or overroought, I guess. Um, it was an expression of a lot of stuff that been building up over a long period of time and it just felt like it needed to needed to come out in a healthy way. Uh, which of course I think music is probably the healthiest way that you can get out some, you know, some of your your frustrations. Um,

2:03so that was that was a big part of it too was just kind of sitting in those emotions that I wanted to get out and and describing them, I guess, when they're not something that it's that that's really enjoyable to sit with or So that was what was so rough about it.

2:22Yeah. Gosh. Well, I I I I feel like um when I when I went into the rabbit hole of the album, like it felt very cinematic to me. It felt like it was a it was a story. So, I really felt like I I was curious like did you have this all in mind? Could you see this in your mind as a story that was unfolding

2:45to a degree? Yes. Um this one is not like a concept album. Um but I wanted it to be um consistent throughout. um and and make sense from beginning to end. Um as a as a a ride inside the mind of somebody that was that had been through a lot of trauma and the different ways that they kind of coped with it um because there were multiple ways to do so. Um and finally culminating in in kind of this rebirth of humanity at the at the very end in the in the last track. So that was absolutely intentional. Um, but it wasn't the same thing as the album

3:22before where it was, you know, fully a concept album with a full narrative arc and everything like that. Um, although there are some narrative arcs on on on Enmity, particularly um, Ballot of the Renegade is a is a story um, that represents some things, but it's it's still supposed to be like a an outlaw type story, old west dark comedy type of thing. And I don't know where that came from. That was just when I started working on it, I was like, you know what? I want to add some western sounds and elements to this. No idea why.

3:55It was just what was in my heart at the time. It's what I Yeah.

3:58felt like some of these tracks should sound like. So, I started experimenting with it.

4:02And I think Ballot of the Renegade was one and then Unwanted was the other.

4:07And I had the most fun working on those because it was something that I had never really tried before and something where I I used a harmonica. I'd never used a harmonica before and I I can't stand harmonas. But I was like, you know what? I'm going to I'm going to try something that I usually would hate and see how it goes. And ended ended up using it and I think it worked.

4:32I think it's brilliant. And I think it's it's so interesting is just it's like I feel like the way you're describing it, it feels like you were really playing with a lot of subconscious like Um. Yeah.

4:46Yeah. the I mean the the cinematic and the orchestral parts of it. Um that's something I've been trying to do for a while and that is the main thing that I've been trying to work on improving um because I don't have a full orchestra at my fingertips or a full choir, right? So I'm kind of dependent on the technology of the time to simulate that and that technology is getting better. Um, which means that it's it sounds a lot bigger and more real these days than it did on, you know, material back from the early 2000s that I was working on. Uh, it was just a technological limit.

5:19And so I think that's considering how much better that technology and producing those types of sounds has improved. That's why I focused a bit more even I guess even more heavily with on enmity on the orchestral sounds and the choirs and things like that because I could finally I had something that sounded much realer you know without having to go and have a actual full

5:42Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's it's so cool that um you know there's a lot of tools I think that have been catching up with our brains. Um Yeah. And I think as you push the envelope, especially like you were mentioning incorporating like the western style and western inspiration, which was out of the blue.

6:03Um me too.

6:07But so cool. Like really really cool. I I love that it's like a bringing in of different worlds, you know?

6:13Yeah. Um, I mean the the different sounds that I try to use all I'm trying to make them part of the story. Um, so I want the the sound design to also reflect what the track is about. Um, sometimes I'm successful in that, sometimes not. Um, but obviously the sound design for something like Unwanted. Um, I think I threw like a rattlesnake in there just to be really cliche. playing. I think that's buried in there at the very beginning just to add that kind of um that that sound element that adds a certain feeling to the track, too. So, I I I love doing things like that. I love writing um

6:53Uh you know, like when I think of themes, I think of the Superman theme and the theme for Otis in the first Superman movie. You know, I love each character has their own theme. So, I I'm really interested in in in writing music kind of like that. um which is obviously what I did completely with uh the the album from 2023 was all themes. Um

7:15but this one it was definitely I think an improvement over over anything I've done um in terms of production quality um and how intricate I was able to go and how detailed I was able to go. So the another reason why it took quite some time is because I could do a lot more, right? Yeah, I was going to say and I mean I was curious like when you um I love that you were so um passionate about the sound like how do you know when it's done?

7:48You don't I never do. I never do. It's it's it's never done. Um but it's got to get to a point where it's good enough.

7:56Um you know some people I know some some artists they'll build out tracks. They'll they'll start with kind of a a skeleton, right? and then I'll just add the details from there. I don't I don't do that and I'm not sure exactly why. Um, but I start from the very beginning with as much detail as I possibly can can put into it and go from there just continuously building on throughout the entire track. There's no there's no skeleton structure underneath that I'm I'm working with. It's all written kind of at once.

8:26Um, which is another way I I also draw um I used to quite a bit. I wanted to do I want to be a comic book artist when I was a kid. Um, and a lot of the ways they teach you to draw is they'll they'll teach you to draw this kind of little basic human shape, right? And then fill in the details. I didn't do that at all either. I just started with the eyes and went from there, filling in all the details as I went. So, that just might be, you know, my personality, I guess. I don't start with the bare bones. I just go all in. Don't know if

8:54that's good or not, but it

8:58Well, it's your way. It's your way of being, which is amazing. Um, oh, by the way, um, I just wanted to give a a shout out to our friends in the chat. Um, Lost Signal was giving you some love and saying such a killer album.

9:12Hey, Charles.

9:14And also suggesting Flashfield Unplugged all her harmonica edition on vinyl 2027.

9:21Done. Done. Charles, you're playing the

9:28It will be

9:29It will be amazing.

9:31Have you done this?

9:33Have you done the harmonic? Have you done the harmonica live?

9:36Not at all. I've never done that track live, but uh

9:39That may be happening soon with Charles. We've got our show together coming up um in June on June 4th at the Renegade in Arlington, Virginia. So, Fleshfield and Lost Signal will be playing. We're both really looking forward to that. We set it up a little while ago. Um, we got to see each other again for the first time in years and years at Dark Force Fest. It was just great to see him. He's so talented and as you know, I I adore his lyrics. Um, and hey, thank thanks Charles for being you and and being

10:13That's so awesome. I'm excited for your show. I wish I lived on on the other side of of of of the world.

10:22That's things that are better about the West Coast. Trust me, I've lived on

10:28That's so cool. Are you um planning on doing any other shows or is this like the one you're just focusing on for now? Uh, so after Dark Forcefest, which was the first show in 20 years, um, you know, I' I've got, um, Rick Fur from Miscellin and, um, James from Panic Lift in the band um, for live performances. And we were all amped up to do more. Um, but I was also very aware that Dark Forcefest is kind of its own thing, right? And not every one of our shows is going to be like Dark Forcefest was because it was it was awesome. It was

10:58amazing. We were all pumped, you know, afterwards. So, I was like, let's take a breather. let's see how how kind of a one-off show would go. Then we talked to Charles and Charles is like want to do one together. We're like yep yes we do. Um so this is kind of a let's see how it goes thing. There won't be any tours. Um I'm not able to do that logistically um with a with a family and a you know full-time job and but one-off shows are definitely something that we're we're considering and that we will we will do. Um it's just they're going to be fairly

11:29few and far between. I I can't go on tour anymore. I'm too old at this point. I hurt myself.

11:37I think it's awesome though that you're still playing live and you're playing festivals and um I mean Dark Force Fest, that's amazing. So

11:45it was it was a it's a singular experience. We played we played a few festivals, but Dark Forcefest was it was just so cool being able to stay at the same v sleep at the same venue with all the bands. Go. You could go up and you could take a nap and you could come back down and and see what was going on. It's just a It's a cool atmosphere. Um, and we started, I think, not even not even 30 seconds into our set, the fire marshall had to stop us from playing. Um, because I guess the the subbase once it kicked in, the opening track started like vibrating

12:20the rigging covers in the ceiling and they started falling off.

12:23Uh, so they had to stop the performance. the guy with a ladder had to come out and go up and try to fix it and then we had to start all over again. So, the crowd was very understanding about that. It was really cool of them. But, it was just kind of fun to like destroy the room within the first 30 seconds of your So, that was that was something that will live in memory for quite some time. Well, you mentioned um that you hadn't played in in 20 years. So, Dark Force was your return to live music.

12:59Yeah. Jet reached out um after the 2023 album and said, "Hey, are you interested in doing this?" And I was like, "Well, I don't have a band." So, I got to find one first. Um and I've been out of the, you know, I've been out of the scene for for years. I didn't really know too many people other than the few people that I still remembered. And Rick was one of them. and Paniclift had just done a remix for me and Jet was like, "Well, James is local to Jersey." Um, so he might be able to do it. So, I reached out to James and James was like, "Oh,

13:30yeah, let's do it." So, and I I I picked the right guys. They were We only had one rehearsal before the show and they were just consumate professionals. Like, they had they had everything worked out um before we even before we even set up the rehears. They were all ready to go. They were fantastic and they were a lot of fun on stage, too. Um, Rick was silly on stage, which I love.

13:56Um, it was funny cuz J James was very concerned about me knocking over his equipment during the performance and reminded me to be careful around the stuff. I was like, that's okay, man. I won't. So, there are multiple pictures of of our performance at Dark Force Fest. You can see James looking at me "Don't mess up my stuff, man." it was a it was a blast. And then we had um Jennifer Parkin from Area play uh the track that she did with me on stage and that was a lot of fun, too. As soon as she came out on stage, just this sea of cell phones came up to, you know, record

14:33her. It was it was amazing. She was great. So, all in all, it was a it was a fun time. I'd love to go back. Um,

14:40whenever they'll whenever they'll have us back.

14:43Well, you mentioned uh before before the stream uh Mirror Luna. Um, so you've done you've done uh like shows um across across the pond as well.

14:54Um yeah,

14:55we did a show uh or actually we did a tour with Lman Mortell in 2000, I think that tour was. Um it was a full monthlong tour. We had tour buses, you know, with the with the beds up on top and the galley down below with like a PlayStation. Um, and it was it was a blast, but I also have this horrible stage fright. So, every night was me trying to work myself up to be confident enough to get on stage. Um, but if I when we first got I think we we flew into Frankfurt and stayed at the record label owner's house for a day and then he drove us to

15:36a rest stop where we were going to meet the buses and pack in. And this was about 6:00 in the morning. And the first thing that the Backliners did um when they came up and introduced themselves was hand me a beer at 6:00 in the morning. So, that should tell you how the rest of the tour went. Um, it was a lot of fun, but it was it got pretty wild. Um, but it was a fantastic experience. Met a lot of great people. Um, but by the last three shows, um, my keyboard player, his name is Matias, um, for all of our Europe performances, he

16:13played all the keyboards. He would have to I' I'd walk off the stage and then he'd have to carry me back to the green room to ice down my knees and my shins because I just beat the crap out of myself on stage for so many shows in a row that by the end my knees were swollen, my ankles were swollen. I was just in constant pain up there and trying to continue to beat the crap out of myself every single night. I learned a little bit of a lesson from that one that I probably shouldn't continue to do that uh and maybe take it

16:48a little easier from time to time. So, I've calmed down a bit since then. But that was a blast. And then, um we did Summer Darkness in Utre, Netherlands in 2005, a few days before Mariluna. And then we went and played Mariluna and we played in the airline hanger um in I think the capacity there was about 5,000 people and it was packed. So that was the most people we had ever played in front of um and still is to this day. And I looked out at this sea of people felt like I was going to puke. And then we started performing and that's exactly

17:23what I did like five times behind the where there was a trash can because I was so terrified in front of that giant audience of people bigger than we'd ever played before. And um and I was telling you before the show at Dark Force Fest, Jet was kind enough to put a trash can by the stage for me just in case uh for Dark Force Fest. But but at this point, the stage fright doesn't seem to be as big as a problem as it was back then. I'm I'm older and I've dealt with things much tougher than performing live. So it makes makes that seem a bit

17:56easier and less scary at this point. Um but yeah, Maryland was the last one we did. That was our last show before Dark Force Fest in 2020. That was 2005. So almost exactly 20 years.

18:08That's amazing. Well, when you were when you were stepping back into the world of of live music, um like I because you had already had experience. Um did you feel like you were stepping into it in a new way though after having taken so much

18:28I wasn't sure what to expect. Um

18:31but I wasn't as worried about it. You know, before I would have been I would have been frothing at the mouth just with with with worry um and anxiety about it. But this time, I mean, I knew that I had really professional guys working with me. I didn't have to worry about them. All I had to worry about was myself. And I practiced multiple times. I was I was fine. And at this point in my life, it's just I I don't sweat the little things as much as I used to. So it was it felt like stepping right back into a degree but with more confidence which was nice

19:07and less fear.

19:08Um so yeah, it didn't really feel too new. It just felt like putting on that old that old glove that used to be too tight and now it fits for some reason.

19:20I love that. I think that's brilliant that you, you know, um I mean you're you're mentioning kind of like experience and wisdom that you were able to like incorporate and just be like actually I got this and

19:35you know, yeah, from the clips I saw from Dark Forest Fest, it looked amazing. So,

19:41yeah, I

19:42mean, it's always better in person than from when you're when you're watching it on on videos, but um because there's always, you know, the the beat that you can actually feel in your chest and

19:52and the excitement of the crowd, which is not always captured as well on the videos, but I went back and I watched a couple of those and I was I was really concerned because I couldn't hear myself very well um in the monitors. I was actually listening to myself more in the house than the monitors um to try to stay stay on note when I was when I was performing and it I didn't do as badly as I thought. Like I when I was up there I was like I can't really hear myself. I'm probably all over the place. But I think just practicing it that many times while I'm

20:26driving to work, you know, every morning yelling in the in the truck on my way to work um kind of work those into muscle memory for me. So, it wasn't as wasn't as bad as I initially thought it was. I was a little concerned at first, but ended up being happy with it.

20:42It's uh liberated, by the way, uh says uh looking forward to seeing you in June. Hopefully, you'll be less busy this time.

20:51I doubt I'll be less busy. Uh but I will do my best to make myself less busy.

20:56But yeah, please. That'll be great. Please come in June. We're going to be having a lot of fun, I think, at this show in particular because it's Charles and me and we've known each other for so

21:08It should be good.

21:08That's awesome.

21:09That's awesome. So, you guys have played shows together before.

21:13Um, I think we did one with Lost Signal a while back. I don't really have a good memory of it, though. Um, I don't have a good memory of many shows um from that era. And that's not because I was, you know, on all kinds of drugs or anything like that at the time. It's just my brain when something new comes in, something else has got to go. And at this point, like there's so many things. It's it's amazing to think about. We live so long and we remember so little about our lives. There's so much more hundreds maybe thousand times more than we experience that we that we just

21:51forget. It just leaves our mind. And only certain things stay. Sometimes they're great things, sometimes they're horrible things, and sometimes they're things that make absolutely no sense. Like, why why am I remembering this when I've forgotten like this important part of my childhood with my father? But I remember this stupid thing. Yeah, that's memory for you. So,

22:12yeah, we played we played with a lot of different bands. My very first show um that we played was nerve-wracking because it was with um uh CEK. So that was the band that we opened for first. So like Jean Luke Deire from Front 242 and Mark Heel was there and it was our very first show ever. Never done a live performance before. Um and it was just me and Ryan who was the female vocalist vocalist in the band at the time. This is before we had been signed and everything like that. So it was but it went it went fine. It was not the greatest show in the world but I got

22:47to meet Jean Luke Deire and Mark. Um, and so that was kind of a an interesting way to open our our live performance era was by opening for a band that I really liked like The Hat and really respected at the time. So that was really cool.

23:04Gosh, talk about like almost like jumping in feet first, right? Just

23:09you know.

23:11Yeah. You're not just dipping your feet in, you're just getting thrown in the

23:14Yeah. Exactly.

23:16Yeah. Whether you like it or not. Well, did you did you know like really how to approach because you know with with electronics you have gosh so many different avenues and different ways that you can approach it. Did you have kind of an idea of like how you wanted your live show to feel?

23:37Yes. Um I wanted it to feel very raw and that's one of the reasons I end up beating the crap out of myself on stage and everything carried off. Um I didn't want to do a whole lot of theatrics. um just because I didn't I didn't have any good ideas for them. Um I just wanted to be very honest and raw and and this is this is me take it or leave it type of thing. Um so I didn't have a whole excuse me whole idea of I I guess I didn't really have a plan going in. I just was like, I'm just going to be me and kind of continued

24:20that. We never really did too many the theatrics. We just kept it aggressive. Um, but at this point in my life, I'm I'm not able to physically be that aggressive as I used to be. Um, so it's a little it's probably a little more contained than it used to be. Um because I do remember um I think a show in DC years ago smashing a MIDI keyboard and it was like throwing the pieces out into the audience. That's not going to happen anymore. That know James will get really mad if I smash his MIDI keyboard. He already was really worried about me breaking stuff on stage.

24:59Yeah, I was gonna say I was like you you already did sort of the James look, so I don't imagine that's would be

25:05Yeah, I think you'd be pretty mad at me about that. Sorry, James. It's It was just what was in my heart. I needed to smash something at that point. Turned out to be your keyboard.

25:20Did you play any live shows before Fleshfield or was Fleshfield like your first project to go to to dive in like that? The only time that I had played live before that was with my high school bands. So I had two of them. Um, one was like this. It was kind of punk. Um, but I did bass on the keyboards for it. It was called Vitamin. Um, and it was just me and a bunch of friends from high school. And then another band that was more in the industrial realm. It was a couple keyboard players and we used like a drum machine um, and had a guitarist.

25:52And so we had a battle of the bands at my high school. And so I played with both of those bands and um so the the the more punkish band we got first place and the more industrial band we got second place. Um which was pretty cool cuz you know I I got a little bit of a bit big head about it at the time. I was like I'm the only thing in common between these two bands. Look at me Mr. Fancy Pants. Um, and then years ago, or I'm sorry, not years ago, but years later, um, my son plays in a band um, at

26:28this place called Bakar Rock. So, he plays bass in a band and they had their first like elementary school age battle of the bands um, a couple years ago and he won first place. His band won first place. That was just something we could bond over. It's like, yep, daddy's first battle of the bands, we won. Your first battle of the bands, you win.

26:45Yeah, it was

26:46pretty adorable. I love that full

26:49Yeah, I did too at the time. I was at and one of the other dads um when they announced, you know, which band won, like a guy, I don't know him. I've never met him before in my life. We're both just standing there watching the band and he starts cheering. I start cheering. We just give each other this big hug. We don't know each other from just like, "Yeah, our kids won. Give me a hug. Put it right there, buddy."

27:10That's That's what being a parent's about, I guess.

27:14That's awesome. It was cool. Yeah.

27:19Um, so, uh, uh, Lost Signal, uh, is saying, uh, you have played together several times, early 2000s when you were literal kids,

27:30Yes. Yes.

27:31Yeah. I was, our first album came out before I was even 21.

27:36Um, on Inception Records, and I'm obviously Charles remembers Inception Records. Yeah, we we were kids. And um I started this when I was a kid, right, in high school. Um you know, I had those other bands, but I also was doing my own thing um and working on my own solo music while I was playing in those other bands, too. And obviously those bands didn't last, but my solo stuff just kept going. Um, I think if I remember correctly, the the first gear I had was just like this Yamaha keyboard with no MIDI. Um, and a I had a guitar, but I it only had three

28:21strings, but I don't remember if I broke the strings to get it to only have three strings or if it came that way because I borrowed it from a friend. And eventually I got a fourtrack recorder and a and a little drum machine. Um, and so I would I would program the drum machine, record that on one track. Um, so mono, not stereo, and then record live keyboards with no MIDI, just me playing live over the second track. And then if there was more keyboards, I could do over the third or I could add that little three string guitar in there um on the third track and then vocals on

28:53the fourth track. And it sounded awful. It was terrible. But, you know, that's how that's you got to start somewhere. Um, and then I think I met Ryan in 97, I think. Um, and asked her to join the band to do female vocals. And we we put together a demo. We actually went to a for real's recording studio at the time and put together this crappy demo. Send it out. No reactions at all. Didn't hear back from anybody. and then around the same time, um, I was also in this chat group on AOL. Wait, we're talking a long time ago. Um, called Industrial Baby where I met Tom

29:39Sheer from Assemblage 23. Um, and Tom eventually basically became Tom and Scott Sturgis from Converter and Painstation kind of became almost like mentor figures for me. Kind of showing me how to do things. Um, providing suggestions on gear and how to properly use it and what what I should and should not do when I'm writing. Um, and that was that was essential to helping me. And you I mean it's really important to have somebody that can kind of take you under their wing and Tom and Scott are the two people I felt kind of did that for me. Um and just just worked with Tom again. Um

30:22couple months ago he he's doing guest vocals on a track for our um our deluxe edition of Onmity. So that's another full circle thing that we we like to talk about. Um, but from there then we we I got a hard disk recorder that gave me a lot more tracks to be able to mess with. Um, so we put together a new demo, sent it out, and then we started getting some responses. Um, we heard back from the guys from Rosta. I don't know if you know that label. They're not around anymore. They weren't interested, but they said, "You're getting there." And then I heard from both Inception, which

30:58was a brand new record label at the time, no bands, just starting out, and then uh Ghast Records, which is the one uh that Assembly 23 started off on. Um and they both offered us something. Ultimately, we went with Inception because as the only band on that label we'd get all the attention, right? Um and that was absolutely the case and Chris did a really good job promoting us. Um, and the first album came out in and I was 20 years old. Like I said, I couldn't even drink to celebrate at that time. Um, and from there on, I think that's around the time that I first um,

31:33started talking to Charles because he ended up signing with Inception Records as well. And now another full circle thing where we are back together again this this much later in our lives is really cool. It's so cool because I I actually am gonna have Charles in a couple weeks uh here on Unwritten Rules and I'm gonna have Tom the week after.

31:55Oh, okay.

31:58you're blowing my mind here.

31:59I'm so excited I get to talk to all

32:03Ask Tom about Industrial Baby from AOL and see if he has any good memories about that. He may, he may not.

32:12I will definitely ask for sure. Or you could ask him about the first time that we met that I met him and he didn't know who I was and thought I was just some stranger that was following them. Um because we had never met before in real life and he and I think Scott Sturgis was there. They came down to a record uh label a record store in Columbus, Ohio where I was living at the time called World Record. Had a great like industrial music section. And I don't remember exactly how we planned to meet there, but I walked in, saw the two of them there, and kind of went up,

32:46started talking to them. I don't think they recognized who I was or recognized that it that we were supposed to meet there. So, they just thought I was some little guy following them around outside of the record store after they left until finally I explained, "No, no, no. I'm Ian. We've been talking for a while." You might not even remember that, but I certainly remember that. talking about the the random memories that you do remember,

33:08right? The random things you do remember because I remember he specifically Tom Shear specifically held up a Skinny Puppy CD um in the record store was like, "Have you guys ever heard of these band? Are these guys any good? You know anything about them?" Just as a joke, right? And and my brain remembers that, but you know, not going fishing with my dad and, you know, 1984 or whatever, but it's just how it works.

33:30Yeah. Funny funny brains are funny.

33:37I think it's it's Oh, it's just I think it's just really amazing that um you've been a part of this community and um and you guys are all still friends. Um you

33:50well, we we haven't talked in a while, but you know, anytime anytime he reaches out, I'll I'll retrain out back to him. Um Charles, I hadn't seen in years. Caught up with him a bit at Dark Force Fest. So yeah, we all I mean we we're not, you know, going to each other's weddings or anything like that, but we're um you know, always willing to help each other out when when when needed. I mean, because we we do have that bond that we we developed back then that hasn't changed at all. Right. So

34:18it's a good thing to have.

34:19Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like that's really a a really deep ethos in the in the music community. It's it is a

34:28Yes. Especially this one.

34:30Especially this one where people don't just there there's not as many people who are just fans of this, right? They're all participating in some way. Um whether it's um doing what you do. Um would you do a band and you do, you know, podcasts um or working for some kind of online magazine or being in a band yourself, running a small record label? I mean, doing artwork for for bands. There's everybody's involved in some way. there's very few people who aren't doing something, at least in my experience. Um maybe it's just the area area that I came up in this in this genre in, but um

35:08that's the way it's seemed to me for a long time, which is really really cool. Um it's a a big almost organism working together to produce really cool stuff. And it's it it's been an important support structure for me throughout my throughout my life. And it was really tough for me to to kind of turn away from it for so long.

35:32Yeah. I mean, it's I I feel like everybody that's involved in this like really loves it. And um you know, I mean, it in just the short amount of time I've gotten to chat with you, I can just see how much heart that you have um for your music and for this community. And so, yeah,

35:50you know, I think that's really special.

35:53Yeah, it's um when I when I retired the band for a while, I was I was way too busy. I was I just finished up grad school out in California. Um, and I was starting, you know, a career. I didn't have enough time to dedicate to the band that I that I thought it deserved. And I didn't want to I didn't want to neglect it or only halfass it. Um, I wanted to be able to put everything I had into it. And it took a long time for me to get get to the point again where I was like, I have enough time and enough focus to

36:29be able to do this again. It took my gosh, I think the last thing I ever wrote was 2011. Um, so it took 13 12 13 years for me to be able to write another piece of music for. So for 12 13 years, I hadn't written a thing. And I was just bursting at the seams finally when I decided to come back. Um, and I didn't know where to start at that point. You know, my the gear that I had been using back in the late 90s and early 2000s was pretty much obsolete, right? It still work, but it it didn't have the capabilities I needed

37:00it to have. So, when I started relearning how to write music with a with Ableton and um plugins, you know, things I wasn't used to working with, um there were too many options. I was like, "Okay, I I could do so many things. I don't even know where to start. And there were so many options that I didn't know how to fully include all the capabilities of the technology into the music. I'm still learning, you know, how to how to do that. So, for for the return album, like I didn't know how to do automated modulation very well, you know, and now I'm much better at it. Um,

37:40and all of the the limits that I had back in the 90s and 2000s were gone, which was again really cool, but also terrifying because where do you start at that point? And when do you know something is done if you could always add more when you have almost unlimited memory to do what it is that you want to do. Um, so it was a it was a new way of looking at writing music. um rather than let's try to push this limited capability to as far as I can take it to its extreme which was how I did things before it was okay I have so much

38:16capability I need to distill it down into something that's workable so that I can actually finish something and it took a little while um but once I once I started getting the hang of it I think it took maybe 3 or 4 months for that entire album to be written which is very short time compared to the year and a half that it took for this ask.

38:36Yeah. Well, what was what was the very first song that brought you back into the fold?

38:43Uh, I think the very first track that I wrote um was the very first track off of Voice of the Echo Chamber. um which is heavier track, but I I tried to incorporate so many different things into that track. Um because I was bursting at the seams that I almost feel like I tried too much in that track. Um and there's too much going on and it changes too much that it loses consistency. Um the second one I did was um Arsenal and that's when I started trying to strip things down a little bit more saying like okay this first one I did there's almost too much going on. This

39:25second one let's strip it down and see if I can just have it um just simplify it. And I did that and now I feel like it's too simple. I'm like, "Okay, just I just swung the pedal in the opposite direction too far, such as I always do." Um, but after that, it just started flowing out one track after another, finishing it in in about 4 months. I don't remember if that included the vocals or not. Um, but that whole concept had been something that I had been thinking about for years. Um, and I was like, if I ever get back into music, this is something

40:01I'd like to do. and it's it's a dark concept. Um, and I was like, well, if there's ever any band that's going to cover a dark concept like this, it's probably mine. Um, and so I I was a little worried um that Metropolis Records was going to be like, "Oh, I don't know, Ian. I don't know if we're going to be able to do this one." But they were they were awesome. When I initially reapproached them, um, I talked to I sent them an email and then Nina and Gail, I think, in Jim. um all got back to me and said, "Yes, we're interested in in your next album." And I

40:37I told them what it was and I sent it to them and no issues with it whatsoever. They're like, "Okay, cool. Let's do it." Like, "Great." And then came the the worries about, you know, people misinterpreting it. Um because that could be it walks a very fine line. Um, and I had to be very careful to make sure that it couldn't be misinterpreted without overmoralizing, I guess, on the

41:02So, we also did put like a a disclaimer statement in the physical version of the of the album as well, just to be on the safe side. Um that wasn't that that album actually was not despite the fact that the the material is so dark. Um it wasn't as hard for me to write lyrically as on enmity was cuz Onmity is more personal and this one was more societal critique um and about things that I had you know studied in grad school and a field I worked in. Um, and so I think that's that's probably why it was a little bit easier to write. but it was I mean basically it's a it's

41:46a concept album where each track is one of those themes like um a score for a part of the radicalization process where somebody goes through and becomes radicalized to violence, political violence, um extremist violence. Um, and I tried to get it as close to reality as possible. Um, and it's it's written from the perspective of the person being radicalized, right? Which in the first place is kind of dangerous because that actually humanizes the person and we don't like that. We want to say this person was a monster. Only a monster could do something like this. That's not actually a fact, right? That's not actually true. Um, so that is

42:31one thing that the album does is kind of humanizes this horrible this horrible incident and this this this horrible um fact of life around us at this point. Um, I also wanted it to function kind of as like a modern tragedy in a way. Um, so you see what the character goes through and then um and then he obviously commits violent act and then he he goes and and does death by cop um on the track reckoning. But I also wanted um to use sound as a way to advance the story. So on a lot of the tracks there are um sounds that I added

43:10in as part of the story. for example, um, on on Catalyst, the third track, where the guy basically has decided he's turning to violence. This track starts off with this this kind of mechanical stomping, like this footstep getting closer and this this weird roar. Um, and so that's supposed to symbolize like, okay, the monsters arrived. Then on obviously on Arsenal, I think just about every percussion sound with the exception of the kick drum is a is some kind of firearm sound. whether it's racking a slide, whether it's a a gunshot. Um, I only used firearm sounds for the drums in that with the exception, I think, of

43:47a couple fills. Um, and then on Reckoning, it opens up with this what sounds like a sounds like a piece of metal kind of being dragged. And what that is is basically just, you know, somebody running a stick over a symbol. Um, but that's supposed to sound like death coming for the main character, dragging his sights behind him. Um, so adding that element of cinema to it was also something that I really wanted to try. I don't think anybody noticed like I noticed cuz I put so much thought into it, but I don't think anybody noticed any of that. Um, but there are things like that on every single track in

44:24there. And I think on every single track other than maybe one or two, there are firearms sounds from every single one of the firearms mentioned in the track Arsenal. Um I think the only one we didn't have, we didn't have a 38 revolver, but all of the other guns mentioned in that track, we had a friend of mine actually owns. So he sampled pieces of them for me, sent them to me, and I incorporated them throughout dispersed throughout the album. So there was a lot of thought that went into the concept of that album. Now whether or not I executed it very well is a

44:58different question. It's I was also just coming back and relearning how to do everything right. Um so I do cut myself a little slack there. I do think that album could have been better, but as a concept I think it was it was what I had to get out of me um for kind of living in that world for so long and understanding that world for so long. And it was a some people want to call it a political album. I don't see it as a political album unless we want to say mass shootings and political violence are a a partisan thing.

45:33To say that these things are bad is a partisan thing. That's not a partisan thing. It's just a moral thing. Like are mass shootings and political violence good or bad? There's no political answer there. at least that I that I was trying to make.

45:51I think that's it's it's it's interesting because like when you walk us through um the deep process and and putting it together, I feel like sometimes when people experience music, even they even if they might not know the details, they feel it. And you can really feel that in the album. I think like there's something very very visceral, you know, like the feelings and the experiences that you have when you listen to it.

46:21I'm I'm glad you said that. That makes me feel a lot better because there are so many things that I worked really hard to put in there that I'm like I don't think I don't think it's making it, you know, to the four and they're not necessarily designed to make it to the four. They're just supposed to enhance the experience, right? So, if that's what they've done, then I'm I'm very glad to hear that. That makes me feel much better. It's like, okay, maybe it was worth it to go that extra mile, right?

46:46Yeah, absolutely. Because I feel like, you know, again, like some people, for instance, like when they listen to a song, they they don't notice the lyrics. Some people do. Um um and same with production. Everybody listens to to music, I think, in different ways. But, um you know, it's just like I feel like having that intention and that energy into the song, I'm like, "No wonder it translates that way. you know, it feels like um very

47:16Yeah, that's what I tend to go for is just something that is able to evoke emotion, right? That's what I think the best music does regardless of what that emotion is, right? And that's why I like film scores so much because that's what they're designed to do. Um and that's why I like to incorporate that kind of stuff into Fleshfield because it's it's about evoking mo emotion most of the time. Anger, right? It's that's my thing. Um, but there's still plenty of other emotions that you can invoke there. And um, we were talking about this before the before we went on. Um, and I don't,

47:51like I said, I don't think I've ever even mentioned this before. Um, but one of the ways that helps me, right, is just simply my brain screwed up. I have um, senesthesia where my um, where two of my senses are are confused. We're confusing each other. So that's my my visual sense and my auditory sense. So I I don't just hear the music. I also see the music. And what it looks like, this is not something that happens with any sound, right? It's not like, you know, I hear a car horn. I'm like, "Oh, that's green." That's not how it works. Um it only happens with music. And each

48:27when I'm listening to music, each sound has a different shape to it, a different texture, a different color, and a different way that it moves. And then you start adding the other sounds in and they have the same type of traits and characteristics and they all kind of blend together to make almost like a sculpture in my mind's eye, right? So I have to be very careful I'm listening to music driving cuz it can get a little distracting. Um, but that is a way that when I'm writing music, it helps to say, okay, this totally screws up the sculpture. Um, because the way I'm seeing it in my mind's eye, there's

48:59there's a flaw there that I need to fix. So it's not just I don't know. I guess that's my my musical superpower then is is this the senesthesia that I have that helps me to be able to say what works and what doesn't. Now obviously that's my own opinion. Uh not everybody's going to agree with that but that's I I feel like I'm really fortunate to have this as a part of me because it I don't want to say it makes writing easier but it helps me in terms of direction. Um because I know a lot of people get stuck and they're like, "Okay, where do I want to take this

49:34piece of music next? I don't know what to do next." My brain just just kind of automatically builds upon that sculpture um until it's finished. And I think that's probably maybe that's actually why I just put things together all at once as opposed to making the skeleton because I just see it.

49:53That makes sense. That's it's the first time I've realized that. Thank you. Yay. We had a revelation.

50:00We love revelations. Yes.

50:03Had an epiphany.

50:05Yes. An epiphany. No, but that I I imagine um you know, as well like um it's it's so different in studio cuz you know, you can really um for the most part control your environment um as opposed to in the live forum. Um Well, I mean, most most of the time, almost all of our stuff is on backing tracks, right? Um, yeah, we can't do a whole lot live without, you know, 15 keyboard players and three or four guitars, bass player, 12 drummers, and a full orchestra at a choir. Um, so we're not we're not going to be able to do that. So, most of the stuff is on on

50:46backing track. Um, but, you know, I give I I give um Rick and James like full you know, full freedom to do whatever they want up there. Um, luckily everything they do is really cool. Um, I'm sure at some point one of them will mess with me and do something in a live that is simply to mess with me and it will work and then we will laugh about it later. I'm sure that will happen.

51:17Um, but those Yeah, those

51:20Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, I was I was going to say um like when you mentioned the cinematic element um I I was curious if you've um had a chance to score any movies or if you've thought about writing any because like from your descriptions I if I I was very much in the story of it. So I was just curious if if you've delved into that that realm.

51:43I mean I have no um I' I'd love to. That'd be cool. I don't I don't think I'm good enough to Well, it's not that I'm not good enough to do it. It's I'm not well known enough um for anybody to kind of pick up on that. Um I have done stuff that has been in in movies and video game. Well, one movie The Mill on um Hulu I think in the US and then I think that's on Disney Plus anywhere outside of the US. Um but they just used um one of the tracks um at the end credits u which was still cool. Um, and

52:15they they chose it because it fit the the subject matter of the movie and it worked really well. Um, the one of the tracks was also in True Blood. Um, that HBO show about the vampires and we've had some stuff in video games, but I've never actually got the opportunity to actually sit down and score something, which I think is probably why I wanted to. So, I think the the Voice of the Echo Chamber album and the unfinished album before that that I released online, it was all instrumentals. Um, it was called Tyranny of the Majority. That was also supposed to be kind of like a score um

52:55and themes, but that one was all themes from my favorite video game at the time, which was Battlefield 2142. So, I had a number of tracks there that were themes for like the battle walker or themes for the gunship, right? Um, and there were never vocals added or anything like that. Um, but that one will actually be re-released as well digitally um by um sometime soon. There's no I don't think that's on their schedule yet, but there's a couple more of the old um remix albums now that'll be released digitally by Metropolis. So, the entire back catalog should be out again hopefully within the next year is I

53:34I'll see how it goes.

53:34Amazing. That's that's so cool. something to look forward to for sure.

53:39Yeah. Um well, I I personally have had a hard time like re-releasing some of the old stuff, especially like the really old stuff cuz it's I go back and I listen to it and all I hear is inexperience and and flaws, right? Um

53:55Oh, wow. So, I know somebody that's watching right now. It was one of my best friends uh from from high school, from my high school days, and he just messaged me 2142 because I used to play Battlefield 2142 with him. So, hi Nick.

54:12Yay. That's awesome.

54:14Yeah. Um Nick, you made me forget what I was talking about now. Thank you, sir. I have no idea what I was saying. That's fine, though. Uh

54:22well, you were saying that um that it was some of it's been hard for you to um Right. Go back and listen to all the old stuff because all I hear is flaws and inexperience. Yeah. I do understand that's where I was at the time, right? You know, that was that was what I was capable of at the time and that was a part of learning. But I don't know. I'm I'm the kind of person that goes back that that is so self-conscious about that. I I can't go back and really listen to the older stuff. I can't even go back and listen to voice of the echo chamber. That was

54:54that's only like three years old. I go back and I listen. I'm like, "Oh, I should have done something different there, something different there." I think I think Onmid is the only album that, and granted, it's it's still fairly new. But the only one where I'm I'm I I see less flaws than any other album. Um, and that's because I took a lot of time with it and worked so hard with it. Um, there are still things that I would that I go back and I'm like, I don't like this these few measures here. I could have done something cooler. But overall, I think it's the album I'm most proud of in

55:27terms of production and and music

55:32I think it's really awesome because like one of the things that you said early on is just, you know, how it's always a goal of yours to always grow and um obviously mission accomplished if you're able to be like actually I'm, you know, I can listen to this and you know, it's in line with something,

55:50which is rare, right?

55:54Yeah. That that was that was a good feeling. Um I don't know what the next stuff is going to sound like. I haven't even been thinking about it yet. Um I was initially, you know, after every release I like to do, um a follow-up EP uh with, you know, a few remixes and a few original tracks, just kind of like tradition, I guess, cuz I've been doing that for ages. Um but with on enmity dependent records um said they wanted to do a deluxe edition and they wanted a second disc with which would include remixes and a couple original tracks. So that is coming out in May. Um

56:33mostly in I think most of those physical copies will be available in Europe. Um but Metropolis Records will be uh releasing some in the US, a limited number. Um, it's got like a 48 page lyric book and that second disc, that second disc has Charles's Lost Signal remix on it. Uh, remix by 16VT, uh, remixes by Mild Drada, Omen Code, and Schneider as well. It's got the original, the new Fleshfield original track that's got Tom Shear's guest vocals on it, and it's got an all orchestral version of Unwanted. So, right there, that's like the follow-up EP that I normally would have planned, right? Um, so I'm not I know that I want

57:13to do obviously want to do more uh but I'm not sure what it looks like yet. I know there'll be some collaborations. Um, but I'm taking a little time off right now and just trying to adjust my bearings and figure out what I want to do next because I feel like I've I've just already poured so much out of me. There's not much remaining, right? It's got to it's got to fill back up. So waiting to waiting to recharge. I guess

57:38it's, you know, I that's that's all part of the process. It it is because gosh, if you if if you were just to be like, "Okay, I'm going to pour everything into this album and then I'm just going to go right back in." I That means also that you held back. So, you did pour everything in. Yes.

57:56Right. No, I didn't. I I poured about half and Yeah, it's probably enough. I need to save a little bit. No, I poured everything out. So, there's nothing left right now. So, I' I've got to wait for the toenish.

58:08So, that's actually a really good point.

58:11Well, how do you I mean, how do you go about like recharging your batteries?

58:20And still not feeling recharged. I took I took a three-hour nap today. I'm not going to I'm not going to lie. It was wonderful. Um, usually music is kind of my way to charge, right? Um,

58:33I I'm very introverted, so I need to recharge outside of social situations. Um, because they they tend to exhaust me. Not because I I hate them or anything like that. It's just they exhaust me. Um, so I I just need to be alone working on something for a little while to recharge. Um, now whether that's music or or something else, you know, other things that I can do. Um, that's that's kind of how it it's a boring answer, but that's the answer. Like I told

59:02Not at all. Not at all. Cuz I feel like some sometimes you you ask that question to a person and and they can't answer. Which is fine. You know, it is fine. But sometimes people are like, well, I don't even know how to recharge my batteries. Like, how does how do I do that?

59:18Yeah. Well, that was me for a long time, but I I figured it out now. It's just it's just forget about all the things that are stressing you out and just relax and do nothing for a little while. It's fine to do that. You know, for I I did not like doing nothing for a long time. I was like I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything. I'm not I'm not cleaning anything. I'm not I'm not changing the world. I'm just sitting here. Yeah. Well, you need to do that sometimes. You absolutely have to do that sometimes or you're going to burn yourself out. Um, so I've accepted that

59:48it's okay to lie there and do nothing for a little while during the day, right? And I totally did that today. It was great.

59:57That's awesome. And inspiring. I think it's inspiring to remind people like doing nothing is is doing something, I think. Yes.

1:00:08Yeah. It's taking a break and recharging yourself. Otherwise, you're going to burn yourself out. Nothing wrong with that. It's absolutely necessary. And gosh, I mean, if you think about it on Enmity, like it was released in February, we're in March, so it's just been a month. Um, you know, and that's

1:00:26Yeah, it's only been over a little

1:00:30Well, it it was finished a lot, you know, ways before it was actually released. So, you kind of have to sit there and wait um for a release date because of the record label schedule. Um, I I want to say I I sent everything in December. Was it December or November? It was either November or December, I think. So, I had to wait until March for everything to come out. And you're you're antsy at that point. You're overthinking about, you know, how the release is going to go and how it's going to be received. Um, and I still don't know the answer to how well it's been received because I

1:01:05obviously it's only been a month. So, and that that'll take time, particularly with an album like this, you know, it's not a it's not an album full of dance tracks or radio friendly releases, right? It's it's pretty dense. It might take a while to sink in or not for for some people. So, we'll see how how well it's received. I know there are definitely some people that have that have come to me and said, "I absolutely love this." Um, I've also seen some people say like I don't I don't think I think the guy's unstable. I think I did see somebody say that he sounds unstable. I'm like, don't worry,

1:01:41I'm okay. I'm taking my 3 hours of nap today. I'm going to be fine. Don't worry. I'm still stable. I got my three-hour nap today.

1:01:53So, yeah. I mean, different people are going to are going to view it different ways and and I get that and that's fine. You can't please everyone. So, you just have to pre please yourself, right? You just have to and I I wanted to make sure I I was happy with this before anything else, right? And I wanted to make sure that I put everything into it and that I worked as hard on it as I possibly could before worrying about, you know, how are how are critics or fans going to receive this because I've got to I've got to make sure that I'm happy with it first.

1:02:20Um, and what makes me happy is not always going to make fans happy. And I get that. Like, some of them may hate the fact that I used a harmonica. I get You know, I never thought I'd do it either, but I So, you just got to make yourself happy. Make sure that you're happy. And very rarely have I ever made myself happy writing music most of the time. Just like, ah, why can't I make this sound cooler? Um, but with with this album in particular, I'm I'm more proud of this one than I've been of any other that I've released so far. And that includes

1:02:52Strain, which I was pretty proud of at the time when that came out. But I go back and listen to the production now, I'm just like gh ouchful,

1:03:02I think.

1:03:02But that's that shouldn't be the case,

1:03:08Yeah. I mean, I it's I

1:03:10because if I'm still at the same place I was back then, I would be like, well, I haven't improved, so I'm

1:03:15missing the point completely.

1:03:19Totally. I mean, it's it's also interesting because you you mentioned like um time is so different with music cuz like you finished the album and so you've had your relationship with it and you've had your chapter with it and then for an audience they'll be listening to it and experiencing it much later, you know.

1:03:41It's interesting how that works. It's time travel.

1:03:44Yeah. Yes, it is. considering like how how long ago did I write that first track? I think the first track I wrote for it was um uh indestructible.

1:03:55Oh, and here's another thing that I I want to get out real quick. totally totally off topic of what we're just talking about, but I remember that I wanted to say something about this

1:04:05sometimes on Spotify or even on Apple Music or on Amazon, sometimes your track your track names will will be wrong and there's no way to change it and they'll be wrong forever. Um, so there is the I think the 11th track on strain has become been called apophony for how many years now? 20some years. It's the word is epiphany. What the hell is an apophony? But somehow it ended up being apophony on these websites, right? And it's just stayed that way.

1:04:37Likewise, there's two versions of indestructible on um Spotify. One spelled correctly with an I, one spelled incorrectly with an A. So, I'm not sure how this happens. Um I try to make sure I spell everything correctly. Um, but that's going to now apparently I have a song called Apophony. Anyway, that was completely off topic, but the the the first uh track I wrote for it was Indestructible. And that one I initially wrote for um Jim Simmonic for his Electronic Savior's um compilation. And so that was the one I was going to give to him. And I did. And I said, you know, I still might send you another

1:05:18one. And then I worked on uh the track called Defiance. And I sent that to Jim. image. It was like, I like the fire and sway better. You keep the other. So, I took that one back to put it on on Enmity. I I changed it up a little bit um and still edited it a bit more. Um so, that track has been around since probably a few days after the the Voice of Reason EP came out back in like April of 2024. So, in terms of a time machine, yeah, that track is like really old for me, um but really new for everybody else. So, it's it it is a

1:05:54strange feeling when you're sitting with something for that long before others can hear it. And that's the reason you get so antsy, too. Um, having waited so long to release all this stuff.

1:06:07Yeah, I was going to say because also, um, that's not even counting for the time that it's been brewing in your head. Like, let alone you putting it out in the but it's been brewing for so long, you know.

1:06:23Yeah. It is is that's just part of the the creation process, I guess. And I wouldn't have it any other way. It's I I love doing this. I needed to get back into doing this. I wasn't feeling whole for all those years that I wasn't writing music. And when I finally came back to it, it kind of gave me that peace back that helped me feel whole So, it's done wonders for me in a lot of ways. It's it it's important to have things that you can lean on like that that you can go to um in rough times and use that as a way to

1:07:00a way to get things out. And for a long time, I didn't have that. For years, I didn't have that. I didn't have my release, and I needed it back. And I'm I'm glad that I brought it back. And I'm glad that I brought it back in a way that that made other people happy as well. Um because I think when you're as a band, if you're if you go out when you're considered to be at your peak, you kind of turn into almost like like cult legend type of status, right? And that's cool, but then if you come back, usually that's ruined, you know, because you're

1:07:40not going to be able to recreate that same feeling that your your fans had when when they were listening to, you know, your older stuff. You're just not going to be able to give them the same thing. And that's a function of time, right? Their tastes have changed, your tastes have changed. Um, and you don't want to write the same album over again. And if you do write the same album over again, you're accused of just like, well, you're just trying to do all this stuff for nostalgia reasons, right? You're not trying to push the envelope forward. So, it's a So, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't type

1:08:08of thing. Um, so it was worrying. It was a little worrying to to me to come back after being gone so long when Strain was the last album we put out because that album was the one that did the best um and tended to get all the best reviews. Like I said, now I listen to it, I'm just like flaw, flaw, flaw. But um regardless, it was still the album that that kind of brought us into the four, I guess, within the scene. And I was worried coming back that like if I can't improve on that, there's no reason to no reason. I can still write

1:08:46music, but I don't have to release it. Uh if I can't improve on that, I'm not going to come back. Um, but I thought the concept for Voice of the Echo Chamber was was original enough and interesting enough that even if it didn't match the musical ambitions of Strain that it was still worth releasing. And then finally with On Enmity, I feel like I'm back at full strength in terms of writing. Um, so years after I left off, it took me from early 2023 until now to get back to full strength, but I feel like that's where I am now. I don't want to overstate it,

1:09:30we'll see. We'll see if I can muster enough for another album. We'll see if I still have it in me after this. I still will. I still will, but if it sucks, I'm not going to put it out. is it's still got to be good. I'm excited for it because I mean just um uh hearing about um you know the the I guess the journey from going very outward into the inward. I feel like it'll be interesting to see what the next chapter will feel like you know.

1:10:05Yeah. Those two albums are kind of polar opposites in terms of what they're looking at, right? You know, like you said, very outward, very social critique, and then very inward. Um,

1:10:16I don't Yeah, that's I don't know what I'm going to be doing on on the next one. And I'll be as interested in you, as interested as you to find that out when it happens. I mean, gosh, I got an idea now suddenly. Is this stupid? I'll be it.

1:10:29Okay. Yeah, stupid. All right, I'll go back to drawing board. Yeah, we'll be we'll be having another discussion about that. So, about that.

1:10:42Yeah, that's that's another thing is is as you know as as you write certain things and you think they're cool at the it's a good idea to just leave it alone for a little while and come back to it later because sometimes you realize that was a really stupid thing you did. And I do that all the time. I'm like, I have this great idea and I want to do this and this and then I'll be like, okay, I've got everything set. Here's what I'm going to do. and I think about it for a day or two and I'm like that's really dumb. Why was I even thinking about

1:11:07that? Just just discard that. It happens all the time.

1:11:12When you're when you're writing an album, do you have a lot of discards or do you use all the stuff that you're you work on for the tracks?

1:11:21So for the old stuff, I had a ton of discards. Um I was a I was a writing machine back in the late 90s, early 2000s. So yeah, the the tracks that end up on the album were the best out of say for Viral Extinction, it must have been almost a hundred throwaways. Um, for Belief Control, there were probably a couple dozen throwaways. Um, for Strain, there were I would say a dozen. So, it's been as I've been getting better at writing, that number of throwaways has been getting whittleled down. Um, for Voice of the Echo Chamber, there were zero. Um, that's because I wrote the thing just

1:12:07straight through. Um, from beginning to end, mostly with a couple out of order. Um, but basically from beginning to end with no throwaways in in a 4-month Um, there was one for Voice of Reason and there I'm to the point now where for for Onen Enmity, there were no throwaways because I didn't finish ones that I started that I didn't think were good enough. So, there's a bunch of started ones that were never finished. Um, I I want to say there's maybe 10 of those, but they didn't they didn't make it far enough to to even be worth finishing. Um, so no throwaways for for this one

1:12:53either if you don't count the ones because they were they were never finished to begin with.

1:12:58Makes sense.

1:13:02Well, it's it's so cool that you're like including, you know, in the upcoming work like collaborations. Um, I I feel like that's a really big part of what this this community is is is the collaborations like

1:13:17um Yeah. you know. Yeah.

1:13:21It's like whether whether it's the live members or, you know, the creating in the studio as well.

1:13:27Yeah. I mean, how many bands does Rick play for? Like all of them. I'm pretty sure he plays for all of them. Um he's going to be playing with 16 Volt at Dark Force Fest this year. Also playing with Eagle Likeness, of course. He's got his other band, Missin. Uh he's played with pretty much every industrial band I can possibly think of. Um so yeah, he's a well-known and he's awesome at it, which is why everybody likes to use him, right? He's great and he's a fun guy, too. Um, for me, um, on on a on a fleshfield I don't do much collaboration at all

1:13:59because I have such a freaking control freak over these things. I would just piss off any collaborator to no end. Um, which is why I do this all myself because I'm sure that I would just annoy the crap out of the poor other person that's trying to work with me on something because I'm such a control freak over it. Um, and I'm I used to not be comfortable with that. I'm comfortable with that now. I'm fine that this is how I am with with my music. If I want to be a control freak, I can be a control freak. Um, but I do like I do

1:14:28like working on remixes. I do like guest vocals and or or other types of collaborations, too. Um, and again that started back the when we started doing the the remix EPs following every album. Um, it was just fun to to work with other people. Um, because at that point I knew it was going to be a collaboration and so I think I was not as was not as nitpicky as I normally would have been. Um, so maybe I can maybe I can get into that mindset here for some more Um, I don't want to I've talked to a couple people. Um, but nothing's set in

1:15:05stone yet. So, I don't want to get too far ahead of myself in terms of what future collaborations look like. Um, you know, we had some we had some really cool bands do some remixes for us back in the day. Covenant did one, Gridlock did one. Love Gridlock. Um, those are one of those bands that I could I could listen to over and over and over again and not get bored because I would hear something new every time. So cool. Um, yeah, we we'll see what collaborations look like in the future. It's again, I feel like that that collaboration album that I normally would do or that EP that

1:15:43I normally would do is was is that second disc of a deluxe version. So, my my my routine is has been destroyed here. So, I'm going have to figure out like, [ __ ] what happens now? My routine is is is out of whack. I have to I have to come up with something completely different now. Oh, I don't like change. So, it might be it might be something that I put that I take in a completely different direction just to have fun with. I don't know. We'll see.

1:16:20My brain can't hang up with up with anything just yet. It's still drained from the last album. I don't know how long that drainage is going to last for.

1:16:30Yeah, it always takes a different level of process, I think. Like whether it's a tour or an album, like each thing definitely has its own time.

1:16:40Yeah, I would I would I would love to tour again, but that's just not possible. Um

1:16:45the one-off shows, like I said, are going to are going to happen. They'll still be few and far between, but um hopefully I don't my stage fright doesn't come back. I I don't view it as doing so, but it's entirely possible. It just depends on the experiences you have, right?

1:17:05So, the show in in June, um I'm not totally ready for it yet. I'm having any track um that's prior to 2023 that we play live I have to completely reconstruct from scratch because I don't have any of the old samples or any of the old sounds or any of the old stuff that I used and all the masters I had were on that tape like digital audio tape and I don't have a digital audio player anymore and the one that I did have eight tapes so it just ate up all my master tapes when I tried to like play stuff so I have to completely

1:17:42recreate any track from any of the old albums. Um, so I'm working on doing a third one. So, anything from Strain I have to recreate. Anything from Viral Extinction, Belief Control I have to recreate completely for live. Um, which is fun, but also it's it's I don't want to change it too much because it still has to be true to the to the original. Um, but it is fun to redo some of these.

1:18:09Yeah. Summit it's not not as [ __ ] much fun, but some it's it's a lot of fun to redo and kind of reimagine a little bit for a live a live um or a live experience if you will. Um because live is definitely a different animal than than listening to something while you're driving to work or just on headphones while you're in front of your computer, right? I'm I've never thought we were that great live. um just because I didn't think the show had too many interesting, memorable things in it because we didn't do a whole lot of theatrics. Um but at this point, again, maybe this just comes with age.

1:18:51I'm fine with us not not being the greatest live band in the world, you know? I'm I'm fine with us just getting up there and having fun with the with each other and with the crowd. Um, so that takes some of the some of the anxiety away too when I'm I'm just too old to give a damn, I guess. Like I don't I don't want to take it that far, but that's kind of how it feels. I just want to have fun with it. I don't need to I don't need to go out of my way to impress.

1:19:20Um, I just want to have fun.

1:19:23Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a a very liberating place to be in in terms of

1:19:29You know.

1:19:30Yeah. Well, it's also I don't want to say I'm lucky in this way because this would be nice, but I don't I don't do this for a living, right? I don't and I don't expect to um this is a this is a I I don't want to call it just a hobby because it feels like calling it a hobby hobby is diminishing it because it feels like it's more than that. It's a part of me. Um but because I don't have to do it to make a living, in fact, it costs probably more than I make off of it, right? Um, I don't have to worry

1:20:01so much about about doing things that I would feel uncomfortable doing.

1:20:10like going on tour constantly. Um, or constantly producing merch to sell. Um, we do have some merch, but it's there's not much. Um, but I see or or and I think this is the big one these days. You have to have a good social media presence, right? I am horrible at that. I am so bad at social media. Um, it makes me uncomfortable. I just I'm not not really into it. I could not do what some people do. Some people are fantastic at it. Like um Daniel Graves is great at it. You're great at it. Um, I am horrible at it and I realize that that is

1:20:59that is going to impact the reach I have, the audience that I have. But again, I don't do this for a living. So, I I I guess my priorities are a little different than than somebody else. Um, that's not to say that, you know, like Daniel only does this for the money, right? No, he absolutely doesn't. if he wants to make money, he'd be going into a completely different industry, right? He does this because he loves it. Um but he but he but he also wants to be able to to survive on it. Um I I I wouldn't want to do that. I mean, congrats. I mean, all all

1:21:38kudos to him for being able to do something like that. I I I don't think that's me. Um I'm too I'm too private, right? um to be on social media all the time. Um I can't go on tour constantly. Um I'm not going to pump out a single every every couple months. I just I can't do that. I want to I want to put together a cohesive album and and release that at once without, you know, single after single after like this this new way of of of the music industry is just exhausting to me. Um it's just not what I'm used to. I'm I'm old school in

1:22:10that way. and old school. How am I How am I old school at this point? I'm old school because I like albums. And meanwhile, people are like, I'm old school because I had a record player and an eight track. You know what? What version of old school am I at this point? That's bizarre how the music industry has changed.

1:22:33I I I love though that you have a very clear idea of who you are as an artist. um you know and that that's very important to you. Like that's that is your prime focus is you're like I really want to craft music that I'm that I can stand behind that I can express that I can have as my voice and I mean like the people that you connect with and you resonate with I'm sure like really appreciate that you know um and it's like and the fact that you take the time to chat to chat with me here and to share about you know your process us and

1:23:13you know all of that. It's I'm so I'm so grateful that you've taken the time for

1:23:19I'm grateful for you having me on to talk about it. It's it's not something I get to talk about very often, right? Um I don't I don't go to work and start talking about like voice of the echo chamber. Um, but I think also just, you know, being being so honest in the music is is important to me. And I understand that some of the things that I've released can be can be heavy. Uh, like Voice of the Echo Chamber is heavy in terms of the content, lyrical content mostly of course, um, and conceptual content. Um, it's it's not a it's not a happy record,

1:23:54you know. It's it it doesn't give you any any release or any any good feelings at the end. Um it just kind of lets you sit with this horrible cycle that we have in this country of of extremism and violence that's getting worse and worse um and will continue to get worse and worse for the foreseeable future. Um and that's not what people want to hear and that's not what people want to go dance to. Um, and I understand that. So, I'm I don't expect when I when I do something I'm not doing it for broad broader appeal. Obviously, I'm doing it for for me in terms of what I have to get

1:24:39out. And what I have to get out is not always pretty. And I'm perfectly comfortable like limiting the the fan base that I have to people that that appreciate what I'm trying to do rather than, you know, yes, we're being, you know, played on every dance floor in Europe. You know, that I I don't need that. I just need some people to recognize and understand what I'm trying to get out, I guess. And so when somebody does, that is that is so important to me. Um, and sometimes I get messages saying saying as much. Um, I really appreciate, you know, what you've done here. Um, I I

1:25:22don't necessarily understand all of it, but I I feel this way about it. And that's awesome when somebody is is getting something out of it. Something that you didn't realize you had in there. Um, and it doesn't happen all that often. Um, but it does happen. And when it does, it's it's one of those things that you do remember, not one of those things that it just goes flying out of your head like like all those other things I was talking about

1:25:44Yeah. I mean, it's it's I think it's like when you um really create from what feels like a very um gosh, like a very authentic place. Like I feel like it's almost like holding up a mirror to other people, you know, and for them to see the reflection and to be like, "Oh, wow. I see something in that reflection and it reminds me of being where we are, you know, and who we are.

1:26:14Yeah. I mean, if if you're seeing yourself in Voice of the Echo Chamber, though, you might want to you might want to take a closer look at that point.

1:26:24That's that's a warning right there.

1:26:26Um and and but but that's part of what that album is, too. it is is hopefully if there are people that hear it and recognize that they're going down that path, maybe that's a way that they can have that epiphany or epophony apparently. Um, hey, I need to I need to fix this. You know, there might be something wrong with me. I might be going down the wrong path here. Um, I I may be, you know, stuck in my my echo chambers and my disinformation feed. Um, now I don't expect that to be the case, but you know, maybe it can help somebody out in that way.

1:27:07Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's it's such an important reflection like you said. It's it's very heavy and it's it's very um gosh I I imagine many people would be afraid to touch on that subject. But the fact that you were like I'm going to write an album about this and hold up a mirror.

1:27:28A societal mirror if you will, you know, like that's it's an important conversation to have.

1:27:36Yeah. And I wanted to I felt like I had this in me and somebody's got it and may as well be me if I've got it in me.

1:27:51I think the the cycle of violence that we we've been in and that we're still in is terrifying. Um, and I wanted to look at it from as a as a from a systemic viewpoint, a systematic viewpoint, I um and say, "Here's what causes these things. Here's what happens after they occur, and here's what society does in response," which is basically nothing. Sorry, one second. What? Okay. Sorry. My daughter has been in here the whole time with with us on the uh on the bunk beds um just just

1:28:35She's she's nine. Awesome.

1:28:39Say hi.

1:28:46Anyway, I forget where we were.

1:28:55you don't need that.

1:28:56I know. Why do you have pink?

1:29:00It's okay.

1:29:01Sorry. Your vid your video was cutting out just a little bit. Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. I was I was quietly commuting with the Wii one, so I completely forgot where we were now. My bad. I'm sorry.

1:29:18Oh, no, no, no. All good. All good. Um, what we were talking about the cycle of

1:29:26Oh, yeah. I talk about that all day. Oh, The problem these days is that um the levers of extremism like the things that that years ago would have taken a long time um don't take nearly as long anymore. That's because back say the 80s or even in the '9s you would have to actively seek out extremist material. Um and it' be hard to find it and be hard to come by and it would take a while for you to acquire it and hence take a lot longer for you to radicalize. these days it's served up to you by the algorithm constantly. Um, so it's easy to access, hence you

1:30:04radicalize faster. Um, and it's really gone mainstream. A lot of the the the parts of what drives people to extremes and to violence has gone mainstream. conspiracy theories um and and tribalism particularly um has gotten worse and worse and worse. And it's not it's not one side that has a monopoly on this either. Um you know you this is this is the same process that will happen whether you are leaning towards the right or whether you're leaning towards the left. The same steps will have to occur. um the the perceived enemies will be different, but that's the only thing that's really different. Um and neither side is immune to it and

1:30:55for the foreseeable future, we're going to be we're going to have to be much more vigilant. Um just seeing just seeing some of the things that are said on television, on mainstream media sometimes frustrate me to no end. um because they're playing right into the hands of of these extreme wings. And I've seen it again on both sides. So when I say it's gone mainstream, I'm concerned that the division is irreparable at this I don't have a good way to get us back we're all Americans first rather than we're left or we're right or Republican or we're Democrat or we're mega. I don't I don't know how we're going to come

1:31:45back from this at this point. It I I think the divisions have been sewn for too long. The hatred has been built up too much. And this is the fault of the media, the fault of social media, and the fault of us really for letting it happen and not recognizing it as it's happening. So I I do have a lot of concern for where we we are in in this country at least. Other countries have their own issues. I can only focus on one country at a time, you know.

1:32:15It's just there's a lot there. So

1:32:18yeah. Yeah.

1:32:18Anyway, so that I had to get a lot of that out and I tried to get a lot of that out in in Voice of the Echo Chamber the follow-up Voice of Reason was supposed to be kind of a um a segue into into Onen Enmity. Um, and I think it starts off a little similar in terms of um, topic to voice of the echo chamber, but by the time it ends, the lyrical topics are closer to audity. So, it was supposed to be kind of the the bridge, I guess, between the two. Yeah. I mean it's it's it's like you were sharing about the outward

1:33:01reflection versus the deeply inward reflection. Um and um you know and the fact that you know you took time to really reflect on this and you know that it it came from a very gosh it's like you really took your time to really take in the world um I think before you were ready to step out again.

1:33:32Yeah. Well, I'm I'm I'm someone who really values getting to the bottom of things and really values truth. Even if that truth is uncomfortable, even if it's not what I want to hear, I want I want the truth so I can actually make policy or decisions, you know, on the correct information, right? Um that has been lost a lot in in in our society these days, not by everybody obviously, but by a lot of people. And that that worries me. Um, I'm also a person that I'm fully willing to change my opinion on something if I'm given new evidence, right? That is also very rare

1:34:08these days and that is another thing that worries me. These are things again that should be in should be things that can help mediate some of what's going on. But as we get further and further away from them, that's where I'm I'm worried that the damage is is irreparable. Um, and I'm also I never fall into that or at least I try not to fall in that trap of what I like to call the arrogance of certainty where you're so certain that your opinions on things are the correct ones. Um, and that you have the moral high ground because a lot of people don't always they make

1:34:45decisions based on an incomplete set of data or an incomplete set of facts. And you're never going to have 100% data, 100% facts on issues kind of like these. So, I'm there are plenty of times I've seen people be so certain that they're right about something and so self-righteous about it. Um, and that's pushing other people to be so certain about things and so self-righteous about things without any humility that I could be wrong here. There could be something I'm missing. I don't have all the information. How can I be so certain? Um, so, so this is the this is the world that we're suddenly

1:35:25in. Um, and it came on fast.

1:35:30And I don't know how we get back from it. And that's the scary thing to me.

1:35:36And as I speak here, I've noticed that the sun is going down and I'm getting darker and darker on the screen as I talk about darker and darker things. That wasn't intentional. It just kind of

1:35:46I love it. I love it. But it's this like I feel like there's like a future album cover happening here.

1:35:50Right. Right. Yeah.

1:35:53So dark.

1:35:55Yes. But I think it's I think I think it's I mean it's it's important to again going back to like writing from an a place of honesty within your music and that and what a better place to be able to like um share reflection than within music like if you have that ability. um because not everybody does. Like I'm sure people there are people who would love to create music and they don't um they don't quite know yet how to have how to piece it together, how to form form the the notes and the words and all of that. And you know, you're in a

1:36:30unique um intersection where you have these abilities and you've chosen to use your abilities to be able to share and express these messages, you know.

1:36:40Yeah. Yeah. I I feel like if if I don't do it, you know, I'll feel guilty later for not doing it if nobody else does, right? So,

1:36:49feel like kind of if if I have this in me and I I think it's important and okay, I have a responsibility to get it out there. I can't expect

1:36:56that somebody else is going to do it, which they very about well may, but that doesn't mean that I don't still have an obligation to

1:37:02try to do what I can.

1:37:05Take that seriously.

1:37:08Excuse me. Oh, well, Ian, um I first of all, I just wanted to thank everybody in the chat for for hanging out with us. Um it's always such a wonderful um time to be able to um have these conversations with these incredibly talented people. And Ian, I really appreciate you taking the time um even though you're in recovery mode. Um I just thank you.

1:37:33Of course.

1:37:35Thank you for having me. It's been been a lot of fun.

1:37:37Awesome. Awesome. Well, I I wish I could watch the show, but I can't wait to see the live clips. Um, the ones I saw from Dark Forest Fest were amazing. So, I have no doubt the show is going to be

1:37:50I hope so. It's going to be If it's not amazing, it'll still be funny.

1:37:55Awesome. Well, um, thank you everyone again. Um, we'll be returning next week. Uh, Kur Mackey is going to be on, um, and we're going to be, uh, chatting about his book that he just wrote. Um, and Charles Rehill, um, from Bloss Signals is going to be here as well the week after. I'm excited. Um, so yes, um, thank you everyone again for for hanging out with us. Um, we're sending much love to you in