Curse Mackey, in full

2:26Hi friends. Uh, this is Unwritten Rules of the Road. I am Tash. Um, I'm already seeing people in the chat discussing tease and coffee and me and Curse were just talking about our beverages. Um, Curse, welcome back. It is so awesome to have you.

2:44Thank you. It's good to be here as on our mutual rainy Sunday afternoon.

2:50Yes. Yes. Yes.

2:52Excellent. [laughter] Thanks. Thanks for all who are here and will be.

2:57Yes. Um yeah, it's great. I I love You're actually my first guest that um I've had back on Unwritten Rules of the

3:07Um Yes. And um I am so excited uh because we were talking about this before. So, I I I feel honored that I got to hear the first inklings of your book. I'm going to hold it up and see if it translates on the camera. But the sound philosophy, y'all,

3:25this is the book that Curtis um put together. It's a beautiful book. Um

3:32Uh thank you so much. And just a fun fact for you is that um you um because we were originally supposed to do this at a different time and then there was like a crazy snowstorm in the northeast which uh delayed uh the the production of the book along with many other books all books that came out of that publisher uh through in this earlier this year. So which delayed everything which then we I couldn't get a book to you in time. So that book that you have was the one that was originally supposed to come to me but we were trying to get it to you because we were

4:10originally trying to meet this previous deadline. So you have the first probably advanced reader copy that came off the press. So

4:20wow I am I am honored. I am honored. This is such a beautiful everything about it. I just love all um the design, the words. Um are you the one that actually did the design? Um

4:35Yes, I do.

4:37Yeah. Um I just I just I don't know like I'm just always kind of doodling and collaging and thinking about and trying to figure out what is what is the book what does a book look like, you know, those words or what's that energy? And then eventually after coming up and also working with another artist at one point uh on additional designs, that one seemed to land the best. For now, that's kind of like the first edition uh hardback. Uh so there'll still be another I think uh iterations I guess or second edition and paperback yet to come. So uh the art aspect can continue

5:18to grow. I I think it's so interesting. I I I am a huge fan of um books that delve into the artistic process. Um you know, huge fan of a lot of the books that you listed actually. Um and I thought it was so interesting that the way that you put it together reads like a track listing. So it's like you have like all these um like you call it the different albums and like the different track listings. So it really did was very reminiscent of actually how an album reads,

5:51right? Yeah, that was uh a concept that myself and then Cliff Hinsley, my uh editor extraordinaire, um I know that's kind of once we started getting into like because you write a book, but then there's also the much like the assembly of an album kind of get into this design thing and like well what is is it you know do we have a dust jacket or how did the p how many words on a page and really the aesthetic of what it look like for the reader. And um so yeah, that in the terms of the organizing of all of those essays, that's what started coming together in

6:31that sort of collage of like how is this thing actually become becoming a book because the the writings initially weren't a book. They were just writings. you know, it started out as just small journaling and then typing notes in my phone and then getting those paper writings into the computer to join forces with the notes that I was taking. And then all of a sudden I'm like, "Okay, well now I have like this huge uh I guess topic list, I guess maybe like almost you could say like a tweet version of each chapter in mind that then allowed an essay to evolve out of that. So

7:17yeah, that's kind of interesting how it uh compiled itself in those ways just by writing consistently. I was curious actually um and I love that you brought this up just like how a book feels, how it looks um like in terms of the way um because I I'll share with with you once you once you answer but like in the term in terms of like the way people read it, did you have an envisionment where they're like they it would be like they read an album at a time or an essay at a time or read it all the way through? Like did you envision any of that? Yeah, I think that

7:54in terms of because like it's called a survival guide. So it's it's a there's a handbook concept behind it as well. So in that way I view it as a reference or a resource, a companion of thought if you will that yeah read it from start to finish the first time because there is a certain artist journey an arc um where it begins to where you want it to resolve to set sail with what you just read like okay put what the what was read into to like action kind of thing. Um, I think that that um is it was just I'm kind of losing train

8:40of thought a little bit on that, but um just to um can you paraphrase the question again for me? I'm sorry.

8:48Just um Oh, no, not at all. Like you were um sharing about like um how how one would read it and so

8:54Oh, yes.

8:56So, yeah. So yes, that uh artist journey is kind of there in the first pass, but then from there, I think that it's something that you can reflect on and just ideally just be like, "Hey, I've got five minutes while I'm sitting here waiting for the coffee to warm up in the microwave or something." and you can just read a chapter or two or in this case a track, you know, and uh and and and being that the book is each of those albums is is to some degree thematic in terms of what what each of those essays or tracks is talking about. So, you can

9:30also dive in that way on repeat listenings, readings.

9:36I I love that. Yeah, that's actually I exactly what I was going to share about my experience with the book because I I did read it um from from cover to cover, but as I read it, I was thinking like gosh, it really does read like a survival guide where if I'm like, you know, I really could use just a a tiny little tidbit right now. I could just pick it up and, you know, dial it into a certain section.

10:01Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, I hope that you found some something useful out of it.

10:08Many wisdoms actually. Many wisdoms out of it.

10:12Yeah. Yeah. A lot I could relate to. Um like you you you know if without giving too much away u from the book, but um I just love that you're sharing um your own discovery and your own challenges in an artist and ways that have been like practical approaches that have helped

10:31Right. Yeah, I I think that's uh it feels good to do that. Um because I not only for myself but so you and your bandmates and so many of my friends that it's like I know that we all have to be going through some kind of similar yet turbulence at times and and the challenges that we face as we want to keep doing this thing or taking your show on the road or making art, making music and seeing it through. So, um, by writing about it, it was a it helped me put some of my challenges onto paper so I could look at them and go,

11:14"Okay, well, maybe things really are not as severe in mind as I'm thinking right now." Like, I just did that before we were chatting about like looking ahead at um all of the things that I kind of need to be thinking about right now for the book and these upcoming like a week in Chicago. Oh, and then I'm like, "All right, now I need my merchandise. I got to get the rental car. And then I need to order several cases of books and just kind of like dealing with all that." So, when you put it on paper, it starts to make a little more sense. And like I

11:47said earlier, like, and then if you just keep putting it down on paper and getting working through these ideas, then you come up with concepts that are like entertaining hopefully to read, but also like, yeah, this is uh helps give me a little bit of clarity. And so from reading enough books and seeing how that has worked for me that I felt like I could maybe just make a little thing to share with my friends and uh in the world and and all the other younger versions of us out there that are just embarking on their journey too cuz it's a nice thing to have like I like some of

12:22the things that I wrote as I've read back I'm like okay yeah I wish I would have known that before I did experience that. So

12:33So yeah, my point is that that it's it's fun to share and not just withhold information like all good books do that.

12:41They give freely.

12:43Absolutely. I mean that's that's been the nature of my um experience with you curse is that you're always very um free flowing with your philosophies with your ideas and um and I think it's amazing like it's a good reminder as well to uh and we discussed this last conversation but just really reminding yourself of your why um you know because you you discussed this in the book as well but just like digging into like you are going to have those challenging moments whether it's like midtor or whatever it is and to remind yourself like okay this is this is my why you know.

13:23Right. Right. Exactly. you you work towards your moments and get over the challenges and and then you can like I was talking to another friend of mine that was kind of going through some crazy things and it's just like yeah just write about all of this right now cuz seems nuts but later on it'll be really good for you to have it down on paper for yourself and for other people of like what you're going through in this phase of your life. So, I don't know. It's it writing's been fun. It's a good counterbalance to making exclusively making music as the number one, I guess,

14:05medium and art form and my day job almost, if you will, for me. So, to then well, because I've just love non-fiction and just weird literature that I've just read all my life. Um, this has been a nice journey to to to help to actually like I got mine. You had your copy of this like so far ahead of me like so once I finally got this I was like ah this is great. It's much like you know when you get your vinyl back from finally you know once you make your album you're like and you you're actually holding it. That's the most gratifying thing because then it's just

14:43like real forever. Yeah. Now this book can live beyond me. So that's a fun

14:53Yeah, absolutely. I mean I I've I'm a reader and I absolutely love books. I did actually see uh you make a post about possible audio recording of the

15:04Yes, there is a definite audio recording of the book. that that actually has been my uh largest I guess that's my current production bottleneck in life is that um so I narrated it and recorded it all myself and now I'm in and I'm moving into the export and mastering stage of like 280 minutes of audio is how what it ended up being so it's like a and then as you know in the book so each one of those tracks or songs in in the book is you know becomes a a song in essence on the audio book. So that's like a hundred files, like 10 albums worth of

15:45data essentially of like each one's like two to five minutes long. So that's kind of my next moment of dread that I really have to press forward with this week is trying to get those the export and then once all those files are mastered then like basically get it to band camp and figure out how to go make the book Not on Spotify currently at all. Um it'll be DIY like more Band Camp through my site and a couple of other platforms that I like. uh for the audio book and the ebook yet to come. So

16:25Yeah. There'll basically be like four release stages I guess. So like we had this first edition hardback and then the ebook and then the audio book and then eventually like in the fall the paperback would come out. Um, and I'm doing starting to book some events around that as well, like doing a reading and Q&A at the Museum of Post Punk and Industrial Music in Chicago coming up in May. That's kind of the next big thing for us for S and I travelwise is doing like a week in Chicago, but also uh bouncing over to Detroit to play Fixation May 7th at Smalls.

17:08Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it's

17:11so cool. I love that you're incorporating that as part of like a tour. Um because, you know, touring is something so familiar to you and so it's very natural, I think, to have a tour for the book.

17:21Yeah. Yeah. and and uh yeah, it's it's a fun way to also travel without necessarily having to carry a lot of gear and do that type of like I can still like talk about art and have it be a artistic presentation without do having it to be be so physically demanding on my own body, which a live is pretty crushing. like you know [laughter] [ __ ] brutal full days work with the with the longest commute

17:57Yes. [laughter]

17:59Um so the book tour like I it it makes I I look forward to that and uh I actually been talking to a couple of universities about some things. So, I like that idea. Like talking to music business classes uh music marketing classes and those that are trying to have a career uh in this field because that's what ideally if you can make it then great. Um or always just find a way to be able to create so you don't lose that sense of self that is so valuable. Um, if you have that art art artist in you that most of us really do

18:39when we're young, we just it just gets crushed and grinded out of you due to the cost of living,

18:46you know, financially and emotionally and timewise and everything else. You know, I hear all the time people are like, "Oh god, I used to be in a band. It was so fun. I wish I could,

18:56you know, or like I would do give anything to get back to it or whatever." Like, I wish I painted more. are used to. You know, it's like you can always There's like there's always an on-ramp to adding something creative or musical or writing to your life. And then I think you just naturally get a little boost of, you know, feeling better about yourself when you do things like that rather than wishing that you were,

19:26which most people stop there like, oh, you actually do have to get the paint

19:32Figure out what to do.

19:36Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's I think that's like the the hardest part is is finding your process and your flow and the beginning of it. Um, which can be so intimidating where you're like, I like the idea of this,

19:49but how do I [clears throat] get there?

19:51Right. Well, one thing that you can do like if you have a Sharpie and then um and a piece of paper basically it's so easy. You can then close your eyes

20:07I have my pencil.

20:09Dear dear friends in chat, join us please. [laughter] So, yeah, you basically would just um one thing I'll do if I'm just need to kickstart something is just like close my eyes and then you can just do a like in like but with only like maybe 15 seconds. [snorts]

20:29Oo, I like this.

20:31I'm going to do this right now.

20:33So, yeah, you can go ahead if you need to like take 15 seconds to yourself. with eyes closed, you said.

20:47Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't look at it. It's just

20:57I got one, too.

21:04So, so I I came up with something like that recently.

21:08Wow. this kind of you can kind of see me in there.

21:14Oh, that's awesome. Ah, that's so cool.

21:18And And did you make a drawing?

21:21Well, uh, I did it mine with pencil. I don't think you can see it as well. Ah,

21:26it's creating a cool effect though. I like that. [laughter]

21:30This is my art. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty sick. It's in your video.

21:35plug your lyrics up real and they But here's the funny thing. So like say just this stupid random like that took 15 seconds. But just think if you did one every day for a year, all of a sudden you'd have 365. Like then all of a sudden you might be like I mean people think like wow look at all those Picasso self-portraits. Amazing. They're all in a book. I mean, you could literally have the same thing for yourself if you just do it consistently, whatever those things are. So, sometimes you just got to like just just get yourself started.

22:12That's the hardest part really, right? You know?

22:15But then it's fun once you start doing working, then you're like, "Oh, cool."

22:20There's a few fun surprises in the book. Again, I'm not going to give it away, but I just love the immediacy and the directive that you share. Um, and it's very inspiring where you're like, "Okay, go do this thing right now." Right. That's the fun thing.

22:38It gets you out of your head.

22:40Yeah. Well, good. I I I think that's what a lot of it was initially. The writing itself was like I was certain parts of it uh the creation went through challenging times where I'm like, "Oh, everything's pretty great." then like then like COVID times and

22:55sort of have a vision of how your life is going and then all of a sudden like hey there's a lot of challenges and changes and things aren't happening the way you expect. So [ __ ] like expectations must must change and then then you're trying to refigure out things and then uncertainty and fear and doubt all happen. And then if you're self-employed and running your own business, your band, your brand, then it's just like, [ __ ] my business is uh maybe in trouble because there's no shows for two years and this is what I do. How the [ __ ] am I going to get through this time? So then you're if you

23:32are like me or I think a lot of artists we just kind of have see worst case scenarios and then you might fixate on that and then if you don't kind figure out a way to like go well there are alternatives you'll figure it out everything will be okay most likely just hang in there you know and start doing something and that for me was really starting to write like I said you know essentially is what led to going oh okay I think um now that I've made enough of these little doodle drawings, like I have enough essays and ideas and topics that I can see this structured out with

24:10a table of contents of a hundred titles and what I've written. And like I say, you start piecing that together and then it's like, yeah, now I have a hundred songs. So they start going into these 10 albums and and it's and then that takes up a lot of time because that was three years of like really of I would say of focused writing and editing and rewrites and then working with my editor. So that's a cool thing because if I wasn't doing that I could just be sitting there like [ __ ] doom scrolling in the same increments of time and have nothing to show for for

24:48it. But because we hung in there and figured it out, we've got to tell cool stories and make something that feels good to share with people. So, I encourage it, right?

25:02Yeah. I mean, it's it's interesting because I feel like during that time, um, so many people that I know, um, really all of us had to pivot. All of us had to pivot. And I feel like a lot of people I know um artists especially um got very creative um uh we started doing live streams ourselves and I think I remember we we did a live stream together at one of the digital online

25:28um and um like writing writing became a big thing. A lot of people were like, "Okay, what different forms of expression can I discover?" Um, you know, without, you know, for those that have stuck around, [laughter] you know, um I think it's um it's it it is one of those things where um being a creative person, I think it's creative problem solving like it's it's necessary um navigating this life. I agree. I think uh if if uh if I ran a business, I would definitely want to hire touring musicians because they have to be adept, quick thinking, problem solving, like you say. I I noted

26:15that that is definitely a cool characteristic that you develop on the road. And being able to think and deal with those little you being able to solve problems is a good good skill. Absolutely. Yeah. Um I I uh actually uh I'm seeing some very cool questions in the chat. If we could take a little tangent. Um so Shasher Cat is asking, "Does a different phrase come from that mixdown sentence curse? You mentioned the tweet moment. Does that lead towards the next phrase of paragraph or chapter in itself?"

26:52You run that one. I guess I see the Where's the chat at? Oh, it's on the YouTubes.

26:59Okay, I see it. Wait, let me see. Oh, it's on YouTube.

27:10Okay, just read me that again. I'll come up with a good answer.

27:14Okay. So, does a different phrase come from that mixdown sentence that you mentioned from the tweet moment? Does that lead towards the next phrase of paragraph or chapter in itself? I think if I'm correct, Cheshure Cat is asking about the weaving, like is it connected?

27:30Yeah. So, kind of like the um the the tweet to me is is is that's sort of like just the one sentence summary of like that's the little wisdom moment. And then if that's a good idea, that might give you a frame of mind on a way to think about something, it's like, yeah, that makes sense because the other day this thing happened to me and I can totally see that looking at something this direction can uh kind of just reframing how I was looking at something or uh ultimately he can just expand on why that idea is is uh again it's almost like problem

28:10solving like Okay. Like I think when somebody writes some like you see all kinds of great quote quotes on Twitter like everybody's dropping some wisdom from some old person or a person from a long time ago or whatever and like what's the context? What are you trying to get across here about if you just throw that out there? Mark Twain once said this like I don't know what the what is this applicable to to me today. And so once you have that little nugget of wisdom, the tweet, then who is that applicable? Well, it's apply it's applicable to me because I had this experience and I'm going to tell you

28:48about the experience and most likely then because I have a an audience that is like-minded and a network of people that when I start talking about this specific uh maybe challenge problem that came about and how it was solved and then that proves that this little proverb makes sense. And so it's just like it's kind of a way of distilling an idea and then in writing about it in a form you know like it's kind of like fundamental of writing that I think I learned in school like you just have this idea then you expand upon it and then the next thing in the case of this

29:31book would be it's almost like saying well I don't want any song longer than three minutes

29:37so I have to be like well my word count needs to no more than 600 words on this song or something like that. So then you start getting into the editing and really trying to like chip away at like this initial word blab that then just has to get carved down to uh I guess hopefully its essence.

29:58Yeah. Like I kind of like the a minimal approach to writing and not just be a little to the point but still like stream of conscious too because I like surrealism and weird stuff. But

30:12yes. [laughter] It's very reflective of you as an artist, I think, for sure. Um I I I also love surrealism. So,

30:23yeah. Excellent.

30:24Yes. Um Oh, it's so cool. Phoenix is saying that um uh he's actually painting while listening. I love that we are inspiring um some art that's happening as we speak. That's awesome. Yes. Um, and Pete is asking, um, which do you find more challenging? Writing music where the marriage of the music and the words can be greater than their parts or writing the book where the ideas need to be less abstract.

30:53Good question. Very good question. Okay. Um, all right.

31:01Okay. Can you hear me?

31:04Okay. Sorry. I found I found the uh YouTube so that I can see the chat as well. Um, so I found that writing the book was a more terrifying experience artistically than what I do as a vocalist, frontman, curse Mackey, the musician versus me, the writer. Because yes, it's just these words exposed. And then I definitely uh went a like even had this conversation with Cliff, my editor. I'm like, I don't know, man. He's like he's like, don't get imposttor syndrome syndrome right now. This is all really good. Like I really have gotten a lot out of this book already for myself and some [ __ ]

31:51So like um so it's like being more exposed because there's no distortion and delay and strobe lights to maybe mask or support or strengthen what I'm saying as a as a musician whereas this is just kind of more like blunt fact and you might think what I'm saying is completely makes no sense and tell me that or you might find something of value of it. So, it's a different form of like being I think what all artists have to do is put yourself out there and to be willing to have your words or music picked apart or hopefully make a positive contribution, but you have to

32:34be willing to like just put it out there. And sometimes I'm unsure and throughout the writing of this book like at times I put it away and it was like kind of like okay. Okay, so you get in a writing groove, which is what happened with this one. But then like in 2023, I was got my first draft really going pretty well, but then after like kind of putting it off and like going, I'm going to start today. I'm going to start today. And then like it didn't happen for months and then finally I got going. But then uh sign and I had a tour with I

33:06Speak Machine and then that just completely destroyed my writing routine because then you're just on tour and then you come home and then you're recovering from tour and then everything's going on and then so then I didn't like oh I know I have this book over here but like I'm just avoiding it and it's this thing and then you have to get back at it and do it and just get through it. So, um, yeah, that's a long way of me saying that this, uh, book has been like kind of like the, uh, it's it's a greater journey in a way than the albums that

33:42were all and all the music and all the experience because it's all of those and then it's put on, you know, came into something that's you can read and also record. I mean, I'm recording it, too, so it's also the audiobook aspect's pretty epic. Yeah, I mean I think there's I love that you are recording the audio because I I do think that um there's certain like um art art forms that I really love um experiencing in multiple ways. Um and and books I think um like I I love to actually physically hold a book and read it like flip the pages. There's something very special about that. But

34:22it's it's also awesome to actually hear it out loud. So like if you're going about the day, you can just like flip it on and just be like, "All right, let's listen to this track."

34:32Yeah. And I think that's an important part of it. And and recording the book, I got a very uh intimate uh connection with what I had written. And that also going back to the previous question, then I was like, "Oh, wow. I'm really like there's no I'm just editing the rawest of again, no effects or anything." So even editing the book was completely different than mixing down a song. So but I felt only I could record it and only I could narrate it. Obviously I should. And then now I'm the person that knows how to edit figure out how to get it produced. And that's just

35:09taking a long time cuz there's other projects going on too. And it like I said it probably take about 30 hours to export and get it assembled for release. Originally, I wanted to have it by April 21st, which is the official release of the of this component of it, but I think it will end up being in in early May that I'll be able to release the audio book and the ebook shortly thereafter. So, yeah,

35:38I think it's amazing because you really are living the sound philosophy that you talk about, which is just um I think the ability to to wear all the hats, right? like it's that's part of it. Like you're still um you know in performance mode, you're still touring, you're still active in so many different ways, you know, and at the same time creating. So that's pretty amazing that you're able to do that.

36:05Thanks. I mean, I ultimately that's sort of the the the whole uh endgame. It's like you want to be your own version of Willie Nelson or whatever. I mean like somebody that just wants to tour and and play his music and at the age of 91 and live that life or whatever level of that you can achieve and weave into your own world. Um we can all put music out and write and have fun with it and and make paintings. But I think the main thing is that sets people apart from like if you want to be a professional, which I do, is that you basically have to figure out

36:42a way to publish it and turn it into something that people can buy and support and then you can generate income that you can put back into that thing to hopefully grow a business like all bands ultimately want to be. Um, and there's varying degrees of of how far you get with that or want to get with that. And some people just play on the weekends and some are going to grind it out for years and some will do it for a little while and then just go that's something I used to do. But um yeah, I think that's it. It's just and then adding doing a book and doing an audio

37:20book and getting through these new challenges. Then now I know how to do it and I can do another one and then I can continue to do that. And then that's just another part of the I guess the offering uh that I contribute to the world as an artist if people want to support that and find value in it and uh have that exchange of like positive energy and and hanging out and get getting to know each other and making friends which certainly I've made so many friends through people connecting with my art and like then it transcends that and that's a really cool thing too.

37:58So yeah, you just have to keep keep doing it or get started and then and then don't stop and and then new new things will reveal themselves to you as well is what I think like new opportunity for making a cool idea, product, song,

38:19Yeah. I mean, um, actually, there's a question in the chat from Burning City, and it's a beautiful question that I think is is exactly what you're talking about. Um, which is, is it possible for an artist to have a career these days?

38:35Yes, it it is very possible for an artist to have a career these days. And then if you and then but once you commit to that as your career, then that is your career. And then you deal with the income of that career and the other things uh as best you can. And sometimes that may require for your to have a career as an artist, you also need to work 30 hours a week in a record store or you have a day job or work production in a club, whatever these other things are that help uh pay for your art that you might need to

39:14invest in it before it's profitable, then yeah, that's all part of of having an artistic career. And then uh you don't you just keep going like it and hopefully it grows like I have way more opportunity today than I did 10 years ago in my career because at that point I did I didn't have three solo albums and a book and a cool pigface tour and a bunch of stuff that's happened over the last three years like that didn't didn't exist for me 10 years ago. So I I still considered myself a professional artist and musician, but I just maybe didn't have as much going on

39:54that I do now. What's the difference? Well, it time, effort, and making [ __ ] happen. So therefore now I have greater opportunity for my career to continue for the next 10 years because of the investment that I made starting in 2016 when I basically did quit working for a company and decided that I just wanted to get back to making art and music full-time and worked out a plan to do that. I moved back from T out of back left where I had been living in Tampa and moved back to Texas in 2016. Um and that's when Rona and I from S uh became partners and uh that was all a

40:35good thing. So you know for the last 10 years we've been building our projects together and making a cool creative life and and some days are super challenging. You don't think you make any progress or oh [ __ ] you know, was hoping I got this tour. I thought I would but now I'm not. So, okay, well, onward and upward and you just keep keep producing and keep making things. And ultimately, like I said, the difference is you had to just keep publishing. That's what I was doing right before this call was uh mastering my next remix and just getting that done. And then this week is crazy for uh

41:13the book launch is coming up and uh new sign album coming out next month too. And then we have shows playing live. That's the thing like you get on a roll in at home like I'm like say we have some show and tell.

41:30So like the mask like this is my

41:33this is my solitude just like all these guys. So like I have

41:39like they kind of start out like uh Okay. So, you know, start blank. You start kind of like painting them up and start gluing and p you know, like elements and then and then they'll start getting a little more fleshed out. So, these are all like some of the some of the fun fun new ones. So, like I've just been making all these masks. So anyway, but the thing is you have to get momentum

42:13like to it takes [ __ ] hours of of like telling myself you should really be making masks right now. And then after that argument with myself occurs, like after I get a couple of coffees and everything, then I'm like finally, okay, sit down. But then within minutes, it's like already fun again. And I'm like, why was I just wasting an hour arguing myself over doing this, right? Um, and then you do it, work on it for three weeks, but and you really get a lot of momentum where now I'm like, oh, now I'm [ __ ] cranking on these things and all of a sudden it's like, I got to go set

42:51up my gear and start rehearsing because we have shows 10 days from now and I haven't rehearsed in three weeks because I've been working on art and the book. So it's that's just how you juggle it. And that's kind of the careering aspects that you go do these things to support these various avenues of uh revenue streams really that you want to grow as your body of work grows. Like you know each mask is something you know this I'm still pimping my new album uh that I'm touring Imaginary Enemies is still going strong. that only came out at the latter part of last year. So I still am working

43:33that album, but you just think about like and and you know like as as you have definitely toured like as as artists like all you just have all these little little I guess buckets that you from your merchandise, vinyl, CDs, like custom apparel Rona and I make or like all my cursixes and these masks and larger paintings. like on the wall and then like you have your streaming and your publishing that you can make money like if you performing rights organization stuff through BMI live and remixing and doing some you know personal coaching here and there and helping some other artists and booking tours or helping other bands from like

44:22Clan of Zymox when they come from Europe I often do a lot of their merchandise printing or helping them with you know travel logistics and Then you make money off live performance and hopefully now for me add writing and putting books out as another way I can express myself but also generate income to help my career. Um because I'm not going back in age. I'm just holding steady. But you know you want to just keep building things. And then like working on a soundtrack was the other good thing that I've gotten to do this year which is also a nice thing to not does not require

44:58touring. So that was for a show uh called The Unknowable Darkland and u that came out in February. So I did all the music for uh like eight episodes of this series. It's on Amazon. Uh originally came out on Scream Box. But cool story with that, which is I think it's worth noting uh how it came to be because I've always wanted to do uh scoring music for television uh like Twilight Zone or Twin Peaks style kind of stuff. And uh Kyle Cooper is a director and he was the director of my video uh for my song Smoking Tongues came out in 2022. Uh it was a single off my uh immortal

45:45emporium album and uh so just kept in touch and we had a really good artistic rapport and uh and right after I don't know maybe right after before the clan of Zymox tour of last summer, Kyle reached out to me. He's like, "Hey, I have this just weird idea. Um what's that?" like, "Wait, I got this sound or this series that's going to be on Scream Box uh through Cinnoverse, and would you be interested in doing the soundtrack?" I was like, "Oh, yes, most definitely." So, it was eight eight episodes. I did about I'd say three albums worth of, I think, about a hundred minutes

46:26at least of music for them. And they used 30 different 30 pieces, all new compositions across eight episodes. So that will actually be my next album release will be the original soundtrack to the unknowable Darkland. So uh if you're like a band a fan of uh like Twilight Zone, Twin uh like true crime film noir experimental cinema. It's [ __ ] awesome. uh the way they put it together. They did shoot original material like on set of American Horror Story and had some stuff from Carnival like sets from that show on HBO in there. And then there's also found footage and other real bizarrely uh true crime stuff. I don't know. It's

47:14very uh clever the way the directors put together the show. um that I I think all of you watching this would like it. Yeah. So that's kind of cool. So yeah, getting back to like careering just like hopefully over time and as you continue to prove in a way that you can do stuff and deliver on your word and continue to build a library and a catalog that that more opportunity starts to sort of gravitate your way, right? because now I get to talk about this series and and they're hopeful for a second season and I hope that will get me more work in that field as well.

47:57So yeah, but in the meantime, we have shows coming up in May. So that's the

48:05That's amazing. Like what a dream come true. And I love that. It's like um you you talked about kind of how things are pretty nonlinear. you just you don't know, but you just have to continue creating your body of work. like um I I love that you shared this in your book and with this was something that you shared in in our last conversation, but you talked about um like how you learned how to DJ um you know from your early like club days and you you helped out the DJ um and by helping him you know like you started you know learning like how to DJ you started putting together

48:44shows fast forward I just I know if you knew this but it fast forward you're like now I am scoring this series which is amazing

48:56yeah I would have no clue on that

48:59like there wasn't even a known reality uh that that would exist for me at the time you know mainly we were just

49:10coming out of just of being like skaters who got into music in in San Antonio, Texas, which at the time wasn't like not [ __ ] Like, it was a [ __ ] rough crazy ass South Texas, anything goes. Don't go on certain sides of town like and you'll get stabbed. And it was nuts. Remember the Alamo? Like, whatever. like uh but it was a great place to like learn how to DJ and learn how clubs operated and there was a good really good underground uh in the day was considered gay nightclubs as they were called. Um, but LGBTQ before the term existed clubs were the ones that were playing

50:04all the cool like, you know, like of course Blue Monday and all the new wave that was going on that was kind of dark and underground softell and depes and the cure

50:19and [clears throat] all that early club stuff. Um that's where where and then um was very easy to get into those clubs as well. And so we just got started going they were cool with like us and we just had fun and danced and then eventually like made friends with uh Jesse DJ Jesse Perez like everybody knows DJ Jesse in San Antonio, Texas. like he was the best, but like as far as beat mixing on turntables, he was like incredible, like a a magician. And so, uh, I got a job baracking in the club where we all went. My friends got were older. They were old enough to bartend.

51:06So, my rest of my crew got bartending jobs, but they're like, for me, they're like just old enough to like you can bar back. Like, okay, what's that? ultimately like, yeah, you get some ice and stuff, but mainly you're like you're the person cleaning up the the spills on the dance floor while everybody else is having fun and then the toilet's [ __ ] overflowing and it's just just horrible. Basically, you're kind of like, okay, you're the janitor. But, um, every shift when Jesse came in lugging his records and I could help him carry [ __ ] in, have a quick chat about like, oh, what'd you get today? Oh, hey, check this out.

51:45Like, dude, how do you get those beats totally aligned? Like, how does this mixer work? You know, like it's like, here, let me show you real quick. Here, why don't you jump on here real quick? Hey, take over. I'm going to go outside and have a smoke. And then eventually, hey, you want to do the first hour of the night? You're getting kind of good at it. The boss approved it. Yeah. But then you got to start your barback shift, you know, mainly so he didn't have to show up early when the club was dead. So, I got to do that, but then I'd go resume my duties. And then

52:15eventually, like after a year of that, which essentially was just an internship with the master turntableist, uh the club came to me and were like, "Hey, you're quite good at this." And they knew that I was promotionally minded. And uh so they threw me come up with a night, you know, let's do industrial night on Tuesday. It's yours. And then now I got my own DJ night. And it's like, all right, time to make a flyer, learn to promote, start calling record labels like wax tracks to send me stuff and network. And because now I have a night, I can network. I'm a now I'm a DJ. Like, cool. I got a thing. And

52:52uh and out of that when I led started, you know, basically playing the music of all those bands I ultimately brought to San Antonio, which is just at the time that the whole wax tracks thing was blowing up. So all those bands from Skinny Puppy Ministry, Thrill Kill Cult, Frontline Assembly, 9-in Nails, man, we brought all those guys to San Antonio and Austin multiple times in in in those prime days of that. And you know, and out of that, that's you know, Pig Face came out of the ministry show that or out of that ministry tour. So when Pigface rolled around, Martin Atkins called me and was like, "Hey,

53:33we're doing the [ __ ] Pigface thing. You want to can you put us a give us a show?" And uh which we did. And then that's when Evil Mothers had started, which was my band at the time. So then we ended up on stage with Pig Face for the Encore and got invited to go tour with them and then eventually on Invisible Records with Martin Atkins on his label. And then that led me into becoming involved in you know a member of Pigface like as as full-time as it is of a band but like very doing all the tourism from from that point forward. Uh, so

54:12that's always been a thing. And then out of that, like same thing, like uh the way I started helping Thrill Kill Cult was just because I was producing their shows in San Antonio and Austin. And so I was solid on the business end of things and also a performer uh that they of course knew was good on stage or whatever. So there's like, hey, come out and tour manage and play. Would you be into that? Like, yeah, [ __ ] it. And then that took I could you did that as long as I could before other things transpired in life and um yeah forever grateful for all of that and that's just

54:47been like my journey like these things come about you do a good job and hopefully it just grows. Yeah, I um it's actually I feel like this kind of touches on um the the question that uh Shasher Cat asked. Um Shasher Catat says, "Going back to the self-portra portrait moment, I'd love to tour myself." Um but I guess this is for both you Curse and Tash. What was your pivotal Yes, I am a musician moment.

55:19Uh my pivotal yes I am a musician Well, let's see. I definitely feel like um certain venues can do that for you. Like I I would say the first time I played the Metro in Chicago, that one was like, "Oh, fuck." Yeah. You know, because I seen, you know, it's like kind of like a classic industrial venue in Chicago. So to get to play there was cool. um when we had a soldout show with Planet of Zymox and signed at the Bolasco in LA not too long ago and that one to me was also like okay cool man like this is a real thing at this time it's not a thing

56:05in the past 18 years ago it's it's happened today so that's very validating and feels good so um I think probably the I don't know like the First time you get to go on tour, like those early days ones are kind of fun when you don't really care where you're sleeping or what you're eating. You're just out there [laughter] just doing it because that was the dream at the time was just to get out there and do it. So there's there's there's stages of that, but I think it's a great question because the main thing is to uh and Rona from S and I were talking

56:45about this yesterday. It's like, hey, you're well, you're actually doing it. Like, you are all these things that you just listed off that you have to do that. Like, [ __ ] I got to get t-shirts. I got to do this design. I need to Oh, god. We got to get the rental car for her tour in August. And do we book the flights yet? Like all these things that have to go into like running the business of the band. It's like, well, gee, you're fortunate that you have that's your to-do list because you're doing it. that you are actually that is your I am a musician moment when you

57:19look down at your list and it's like well most of the [ __ ] I am doing today revolves around me uh surviving or maintaining keeping my band balance above zero if possible while doing this [ __ ] and paying my way and and funding this the next project. Okay, you know, like how does a week in Chicago work? You know, with Fixation Fest, figuring it out. Well, then that's the you're actually having a music career. That is your day job. It is not all only a handful of people will have the thing where they just walk on stage and play for an hour and get back on a jet and

57:57fly home. 99% of us are [ __ ] slugging it out and finding some form of fun in that sort of a a self-sadistic thing that we the things we go through to to um to to to play our show and get our art out there. Yeah. But those, you know, all those challenges also are where all the great stories come from. And especially when you can get through them, I learned that. So yeah, so doing it is is what makes the career. It's just like that's what magic is. You're doing it. So then that's [ __ ] happening. There it is. It's reality. Why? It's reality because I'm doing it.

58:44If I otherwise, I would just be over here on the couch still thinking about it. There's nothing being made. But 10 seconds later, if your hands are on a mask cutting paper, it's like now something's coming alive.

58:58I don't know what I'm recording today, but I have my I have my Ableton session open because I in, you know, soon as I have some free time, I'm going to knock out that 10-minute ambient jam that I do every day as an exercise or whatever. So, yeah, that's all it's all like doing, right? Yeah, absolutely. I I think um I it's and and I love that you're sharing like it's it's many things. It's the it's the moments when you're like, "Oh, wow. I'm here at this music hall or I'm actually doing this thing." Um and I realize in my list that there's like a series of

59:39things that I'm like, I am actually doing the thing. I am um the artist or the musician or whatever form you decide to take. um or multiple forms like I am I am that right

59:52yeah I think it takes time to where you actually have to recognize it too because it it's an natural like we all live are inundated with like information and obligations and sometimes you don't take the time to be like oh man I'm just actually here doing what I want to do and that can be as simple as like sitting here doodling and not having anything else going on or I'm just doing my little quick 10-minute journal or it can be like, yeah, I'm playing a badass show today or we are driving to our show. We're doing it. But the main thing is like to recognize the fact that, you

1:00:30know, it's it's like being present and sometimes we lose sight of that because we're so uh caught up in like what do we got to deal with next that you forget like yeah, you are doing it.

1:00:44So enjoy that. And then if you recognize that, you get a little I think it's a good little boost for your your personal ego. Now, it's like those are the wealth

1:00:58In a way, like just recognizing and you can feel good about like, yes, I put in the good four hours in the studio today. Not sure what I got, but I think it's going to be good. That's there's something good about that. It doesn't always relate to money, but I think it relates to time

1:01:16contributed or time well spent, you know, that that may give something back

1:01:23Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a it's a it's a an act of devotion. I I think it's a a little daily devotion every

1:01:33that's right. Got to praise the muse.

1:01:36Yes. Yes. You must dance with your muse. I think um I I I do think it's it's I think every person has it in them to have uh um artistic expression in some form or fashion and um and sometimes it can be very intimidating just the idea of it especially if you haven't been surrounded by um you know other artists like I I grew up in Leach myself in

1:02:08um and so different it's like San Antonio and and Austin and Dallas are much bigger than Dallas or I'm sorry uh

1:02:15Um and so you know it's it is one of those things where you know it sometimes the idea of doing the thing can sound very intimidating. Um but I really like um that that philosophy and the idea that um it's just sort of like doing little mini daily things every day that can build your work over time like you've been saying.

1:02:37Absolutely. Yeah. That's what it's about. Like just show up every day and then it's just like it just takes a little while to build up good habits and the the momentum starts to feel good and then you then you have direction and then you don't feel as lost with like what am I do today? Because then you feel like you're wallowing if you don't have direction. Like if you don't you're e you know sometimes you know what you're doing like hey I got to be at the [ __ ] office by 8:00 a.m. That's a thing you got to do but then you might also be later than in the day. Well you

1:03:09still need to get into the studio for 20 minutes and have that sacred time for I so that's where the book is not for everybody but it is for those of us that over the long term that making things making art making music having time like jam iting on a synthesizer regardless of whether you make put it out or not. Hopefully you do and turn it into something but you don't have to. But still, all all of that is time just so much better spent when you look back on your life than just [ __ ] off online. And that's real what everybody is susceptible to right

1:03:52now. So, one way to set yourself apart from the masses is to be a good artist and and make [ __ ] because you might make a living off of it, but unless you put it out there and make something, you will never know. You just have to try and that's worth I think that's worth

1:04:14Yeah, absolutely. I like that Phoenix is sharing that art is medicine.

1:04:23Yes. Yes. Here. Here.

1:04:25Um there was a Oh, Joey Harden is saying, "Ask curse about those Friday nights back in the day with Xina. Miss you, buddy." Oh, Tampa. Yeah, Tampa had a had a good scene. Um, and uh and still does. So, that's as much as I know or recall about many [clears throat] Friday nights in Tampa. But, have you been to the castle?

1:05:00I've never been to the castle. We played um Absolution Fest last year, but um we just with our tour sk with our tour schedule, we didn't have time to go to the castle, but I've heard so much about it. So,

1:05:13yeah, that definitely blew my mind on um sort of like when you gauge the strength of a scene from city to city, like Tampa with with [clears throat] the castle actually being a castle in a historic district. um and and pretty much always [clears throat] lending its space to towards music of the dark side from the 80s to now, if you will. Um like it wasn't just like a monthly thing. Like it's just always a goth club and it's awesome. So yeah, they they like that club was always so uh so kind to me. Allan, the owner, and staff, like when I moved to Tampa,

1:05:55they were like super embracing like to uh to welcome me in to DJ and do events there and stuff. So, highly recommend it if you get can get there for everyone. But yeah, and I and and I always consider getting back to the Friday night site. Consider Tampa is kind of like second home or always another home base for me. Oh yeah, we love we love the community in Tampa. They've always been

1:06:25Communion After Dark. Shout out.

1:06:27Yes. Yes. We love We love Mark and Communion After Dark.

1:06:30Mark Paradise, Mouse. Tom Gold.

1:06:34And Crowbar, Tom, George. Awesome.

1:06:38Great venue.

1:06:42Um I I think Crowbar actually might be uh closed now. Um

1:06:48I know what's happening. I don't know if he has closed yet, but I know that uh this year was the last like 20th year and then out. Yeah, that's because I guess Tampa is getting greedy and wants to Eore City and

1:07:07So, it's making, you know, squeezing the independent venues out of the area, which of course were the ones that made it like was the appeal of why would you want to go down there?

1:07:19in clubs, galleries and record stores and then then they can't ex afford to be there anymore.

1:07:27But anyway, it's my rant on Tampa. Yeah. Are you

1:07:35Um actually, yeah, there's a question uh from Burning City. Um is do you see um this as a companion book to Martin's Tour Smart? Well, I mean, they would certainly go well on the same shelf together. And I do um make mention of his book in my book as well. Um actually, Martin's uh Welcome to the Music Business, your [ __ ] I think, is the the one that I put as recommended reading. But yeah, Tour Smart is great. I I wrote in both of those books, Tour Smart and Band Smart. So those are probably my first sort of music business mindset publishing. So yeah, they go

1:08:20well together. I I recommend those books for sure. I think you should update do a do an update for

1:08:29Yeah. Yeah. There's been so many people that I've had on here that have referenced Tours Smart actually. Um

1:08:36Yeah. Oh yeah. It's great.

1:08:38Yeah. So yeah, I I I have a copy myself. So [laughter] yeah, when I first started um independently touring and doing the booking and all of that for us, um it was such an inspiration, especially where you're like, where do I get started and how do I do all this and is even possible? Um and it is. It absolutely is. It's just it takes some it takes some trial and error, I think, when you're first starting out, you

1:09:05Yeah. I still have seen stories just about people [clears throat] talking about their cost of touring now and recent stories and it's kind of like I kind of sort of put it through the band smart filter to it's like okay so you wanted to drive how far to play how many shows.

1:09:22Okay, I don't know it's going to be the likelihood of making money is is stacked against you from the get-go. And so there it it's a good book because it makes you think from a different perspective about like yeah sometimes it's okay maybe to say no maybe we don't need to go that far yet you know like you know what what what's the real goal here

1:09:44like if you live in

1:09:46like Seattle what's the urgency to play Miami you like versus like all those areas in the Northwest like I don't know things like that. So, uh, you can learn a lot from tour smart.

1:10:03Yes. Yes. And you do mention that as well in your book, like some some of the weighings of, um, you know, sometimes when you really look at the logistics and you're like, okay, um, like where can I if I want to tour, where can I do it regionally um, in a way that it doesn't completely break me? Because there's so many logistics to think about. Um whether you're a solo artist, duo, or a full band, um it's a little different depending.

1:10:31Yeah, for sure.

1:10:33How many travel with you?

1:10:36Uh seven. Alice,

1:10:38Alice is party of seven.

1:10:40Uh yeah, so there's six in the band and then we have our our our usually our friend Adam um who does a lot of the driving and helps us with the tech work and um the roadie work and all of that. He's just a a master of many things and we appreciate him so much. [laughter]

1:10:56But yeah, we travel in a 15 passenger van as a sevenpiece with a trailer.

1:11:03All right.

1:11:07Yeah. So, it's interesting now like just I was trying to figure out some tours that I was up for and some things that didn't pan out and I was thinking about it like when you figure out like what what how what your potential income is and then now like if gas prices rise like a$150 a gallon or more in some cases depending like if you're in a diesel vehicle it's so expensive right now due to, you know, things beyond our control as touring artists. Like gas just as gone so expensive. Like some one tour that could have happened would be like 8,000 miles. It's like, okay, that's like 400

1:11:54gallons if you're lucky to get 20 miles a gallon, which probably not. And then if each gallon is now like $2 more than it was at the time of saying yes to the tour, say $800 shift at least in in fuel price, which it could be up to like in some, you know, you know, at this level, many bands might end up playing for 150 or 200 or if they're lucky, 500, but maybe $80 a night

1:12:24when you're touring on a multiband package of,

1:12:28you know, like smaller bands and uh it's [ __ ] crazy. So

1:12:35I don't know. It got me off on the tangent of uh the cost of touring, but that's just something that's been on our mind anyway.

1:12:42Oh yeah, absolutely. We we um got offered a couple of things. Um one was opening for um an artist that was a little larger than us. Um, and another one where it was a festival and they weren't going to pay us. Um, it was just sort of like you get exposure but we won't pay you. There was no budget for us. And um, I I really liked what you said in the book where it was just sort of like weighing the cost of things and also knowing your value. Um, and on one hand I'm like, okay, well, we could always we love playing live. Like we our

1:13:18our hearts are always in the live arena. Like I love that live connection, but at the same time I was like if I look at the logistics, like I'm the one that does the booking, so it's going to take me about 4 to 6 months to actually put it together um to get a tour there and back. Um so that's time and energy and at the same time like you know it's like trying to play the shows along the way and piece it together to to get out there and back.

1:13:44Um gas is almost like um $7 here in LA. So, West Coast like Yeah, gas is pretty crazy here. It's I I literally saw $7 at the gas station just just today. So, West Coast like gas prices are pretty crazy. So, yeah, I'm always thinking about this stuff, but I was like, you know, as much as I would love for us to just get out there and do the thing. I was like, you know, I think like we will absolutely get back out there again, but I was like, gosh, I'm like, it would take us so much money. It would probably go in the hole to be honest.

1:14:18To get us there back.

1:14:20Yeah. So it's like playing the long game like I I have the same thing. I'm like ah god I was should have been on tour this spring that you know and we are doing a week in Chicago and fixation fest but that's kind of its own installation and almost a little residency in itself. It's not like just grinding it out for three weeks and hitting 18 cities in 21 days. Um, but yeah, I'm kind of of of the same mindset that I want to see how things are going to play out a little bit uh and not force myself to just have to be out there. But I've

1:14:53toured very hard for the last three years as well. So,

1:14:57we do feel like we want to make sure everything counts and that it's a good gig and a good use of time for everyone, for the promoter, that we bring a good show and that we're in the right mindset to do that and feeling good about everything. So, but yeah, we we'll be out there later, too.

1:15:18It's a long year. See,

1:15:21it is. And there's so many other ways that you can I feel like be in the creation and connect with people. Um

1:15:29like right now.

1:15:30Exactly. Exactly. [laughter]

1:15:33Could you excuse me one moment? I need to take care of something at my front door. Okay.

1:15:38Oh yes, of course.

1:15:39Be back in like 30 seconds. Okay.

1:15:41We will talk in the chats. Um yes, I am seeing um Phoenix is saying gas is maybe fiveish here. I know it's crazy. I saw that in the uh the gas station. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I think this is the most expensive I've ever seen gas." So yeah, but um I uh like I was saying to Curse, like really love and appreciate playing live. So that's definitely still something um that we will be doing. um just figuring out the logistics of it because um there is only so much debt a band can handle and we have so much I mean it's incredible the amount of support that we

1:16:25we've had um to be able to do what we do but um we're independent um curses on negative gain records um but um I think it's just like at at all levels like um it is something where it's like okay gosh you have to think about the tour vehicle and Um and the and the feeding of the tour vehicle. So yes. Oh, Burning City is asking about uh my band. Thank you for for asking. Um so um my um main focus right now is Alice. Um I've also played uh well we started off as Mankind is Obsolete. Um Sher Cat was asking about that moment

1:17:07where you know you're a musician and I think for me it was in Mankind is um we decided to literally give up everything like our jobs um our our apartments and we went on tour for a year um a year straight. Um and I think for me that like knowing that moment um really gave me the insight and perspective of like oh I see a I see a hello friend. [laughter] Oh my goodness. Who is this?

1:17:38Oh yeah. Yeah. We'll bonus guest.

1:17:44Oh, what a treat. Hello.

1:17:48That's That's a Zezy.

1:17:50Zezy dog.

1:17:52Oh my goodness. But yeah, like it gave us the perspective of like this is something we are absolutely committed to. I um I was sharing um Burning City was asking about my band and um I was sharing just mankind is obsolete and Alice and the moment that I was like I am a musician I have committed to this. So yes

1:18:17Yeah. And now just don't stop.

1:18:22like [laughter] I I uh I think like you had that moment and then one mistake that like my band Evil Mothers that we made we were doing good that was like our first my first major project and we were making our way but we were also like the bigger you get there's the more that's at stake in a way like financially and ambitiously and uh we kind of had this snafu I guess where things didn't go right and uh so we ended up basically essentially breaking up and I wish that we would have slowed down and just said like let's just take a break like

1:19:06let's take off let's take six months or a year and like

1:19:10everybody deal with their [ __ ] like

1:19:13and it's okay like cuz like we don't have to just keep driving but instead we're like like [ __ ] Oh man, we just and that was that. And we ended up of course reuniting sometime later, but it was never like the same like potential.

1:19:32That it had. So that was one thing I think also like it's okay for bands to take a break rather than being like uh we broke up man, you know, like just

1:19:42you don't have to. You can have this this project could last a lifetime if you don't break up. you just evolve and slow down and take breaks and push again and and then if you're lucky you have these waves of relevancy with audiences and u and then it's a long a long journey.

1:20:02Absolutely. I mean that's it's been kind of the case for mankind is obsolete like um when we finished our year-long tour I was sharing that we um made the decision to just tour for a year straight. We were like, we're getting in the van, we're giving up our jobs and our homes and just putting everything in storage, going on the road.

1:20:20Love it.

1:20:21And um that that for me was a defining moment where I'm like, I am committed. Like this is this is my life. Um and I've never looked back since. Um but you know, when we got back from the year-long tour, all of us were getting asked to play in other projects. So our drummer John plays drums for IMX and um

1:20:40uh gosh, Frontline Assembly. He plays drums for so many projects.

1:20:44Oh, yeah. John Siren's great.

1:20:45Yeah. He's amazing.

1:20:48Yeah. And um and I just love that we're, you know, we've all decided like, okay, we're putting a pin in it and we'll return and that's, you know, and we have this ongoing conversation of like, okay, what is the next thing we're going to, you know, brew up and I'm excited for it. But I like your like philosophy. Um, and you mentioned this in the book of like taking your little breaks, taking your moments that you need for yourself. You know, it's important,

1:21:14right? Definitely. For that very reason, like I'm saying, like should have just slowed down a bit like you live and learn.

1:21:22Yes. [laughter]

1:21:26Yeah. Absolutely. I think that um uh I I I feel like there's uh something maybe maybe in western culture I don't know or if it's if it's a music culture if I've been embedded in this world for so long but I do feel like we are very compelled and driven to produce constantly right there's always this compulsion where we're like okay I have to do the next thing and get ready for the next thing and it is sometimes very hard I think to put the brakes on and take a does.

1:21:59Oh, yeah. Like the little recharge is is typically in and in and small recharges like you can take a break and but also just like I was chatting with Kevin Key from Skinny Puppy recently. Um, we were talking about kind of like creative processes and uh one of those like you know how do you kind of jog that like what's the kickstarting method to get something going? It's like and he's like what? Go for a walk. I'm like yeah exactly like that's one of our favorite things to do. It's like so often just in the walk I I'll get that little you hear that little like uh the riff in the back

1:22:43of your head or a lyric comes to pass and then and now at the end of that walk I'm like I need to hurry up and go get in the studio and write or write something down or or actually just start working on something that I was hearing in my head. So it again it's like a little break. you got away out. You get away from the project so you can get some clarity, get a break, and then you regain a little momentum or motivation to get back to something that you actually realized that you were having fun working on. So, yeah, get moving.

1:23:20Get moving. That's a great one. Okay. I have a I have a random question for you.

1:23:26Um I love this design so much in your book. I'm going back to the book if that's okay.

1:23:31Yeah. Yeah.

1:23:32Um so I love that this like separates the different um albums or the track listings. Um can you talk at all about uh this Oh, I don't know if you could see it, but this design Oh, come back to me. This

1:23:49Sorry for the terrible.

1:23:51Yes. [clears throat] So that's like basically the um the emblem for the sound philosophy. And I kind of just I felt like it needed to have an image um just like a band, you know, what's the logo kind of thing. And uh so sound philosophy is it's like balance and then you have of course this like a sine wave the sound and then there's these two bearings on the end of that. um to provide balance, but there's also going to be it's like a fulcrum

1:24:33of of way the way momentum works. Uh but always balanced if you are like kind of the center there. So that's uh what that was all about. And

1:24:46that's a really powerful symbol. I really like it and it really does encapsulate encapsulate it really well. I think I think that's a very strong

1:24:55Cool. Well, thank you it's like um

1:25:02I really like that. Um I mean this is amazing, but that you um you're not just a musician, you're not just a writer, you're also a visual artist. Like there's different mediums that you've incorporated in this. Um and that I think that probably really frees you to have a more encompassing vision as you put out more work.

1:25:21Right. I agree. I think that well so I started out as like an architecture interior design major. So I did always like drafting and drawing and working with pencil but really just got more of an affinity for music but through music then that puts you back in design when it comes to creating album art and Um, and then I think it just I got inspired to start making, you know, the concept of like what is what's the cool what's the cool merchandise to make for this new project. So, the crucifixes kind of ended up being a clever

1:26:04that um had a my own little Andy Warhol factory of these repeating patterns across a series of of similar ideas or u shapes, the crosses. Um so, and then from there that kind of idea just kept expanding. So, and then starting to and then those paintings on the back wall were from performances where essentially the paint was made or spread with my feet in the early days of like the more like I was doing very more industrial experimental sets with the first incarnation of the Kursmackie project. Um, so that kind of got the sort of sort of mixed media aspect, I guess, to it. And also doing

1:26:52limited edition prints and I've curated a lot of art exhibits over the years. So that kind of is a parallel that's been in part of my I guess creative output as well in in curating gallery and museum shows. So to have that part of the art output of the music just I guess it's just a natural course for me. But I do love it because like you say it's it's a nice change of pace from getting away from editing [clears throat] or working on music and then be able to work you know tactile with glue and paint and markers and found objects and create pieces that people love checking them

1:27:36out at the merch table. It's like all that stuff's super popular, too. So, for me, it's a lot of fun and it gives me like a direction like what am I going to work on today? Okay, cool. I'll work on a song for a little bit, but now I'm going to get over back to the masks or

1:27:54You mentioned the possibility of of another book. Um, I know you're still in this in this still zone, but have you brewed up any possible little seeds of what the future might look like in that

1:28:09I do. Um, there's definitely, I guess, ideas that have evolved out of this one that I [clears throat] foresee a couple of tangents like, okay, I would like to elaborate on this particular thread, but this is not the book to do that. in. So, there's a couple of those. So, I I I foresee some I don't know, spin-offs, if you will.

1:28:38And I think that I would also be down with doing some some fictional stuff,

1:28:44at some point.

1:28:46But, uh, definitely another companion type of book to the sound philosophy, I um because just as much writing as I did, a lot of the things that I wrote ultimately were also not published. So there's still like this additional body of work that I need to figure out how I want to approach it. So, I I got a substack going and I've been trying to consistent of of putting some writings out there and talking about some of the things that we've been talking here, even just from the economies of touring and the mindset behind dealing with setbacks and [ __ ] like that.

1:29:31Well, it's very appreciated the fact that you um put it all into a tangible form that people can can read. So, um I I think that's the beauty of of I guess committing to creating the art is that it can it goes from being inside your head with ideas to being something that other people can actually like experience. And I think there's so much valuable wisdom in what you've shared.

1:30:00Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's I mean I I like writing about it and talking about it. Um and just see, you know, it's like talking about any book or movie, but it just happens to be one that I made. So,

1:30:16yeah. And I I I found like most of the people that I like or and that I've known in the music industry that I've respected and admired and I feel like have had good careers, most of them weren't um hard to reach or hard to talk to that uh they shared information freely. They weren't gatekeepers. They were helpful. could understand where you might be coming from and uh were willing to to give some perspective that might be beneficial or give you a chance to to even work for them. Um, so I I feel like that it's just sort of my place in the world to also I've been

1:31:03the benefit of [clears throat] great wisdom and experience by people that are I would say further along in their career than I am that have allowed me to either work on their projects or have have contributed to mine and or had just some sort form of interest in me doing well and have shared their expertise. So I think it's important that given the opportunity to do the same and this book is sort of a lifetime of all of that that I could finally piece together hopefully with some form of clarity to get along get pass along my gratitude and any knowledge that I might have that

1:31:42may help people today right in the here and now because that's where we're at. You know there all kinds of crazy [ __ ] going on. So, it's nice to have some some some words to lean on, maybe.

1:31:56Yeah, absolutely. I think it it definitely shines a light. Um, and it is very current. Um, you do talk about things like um distractions and the dangers of the distractions like the social media world and um and how to be present and in your community and and a creative all at the same time. So yeah, um what is your uh best way for anybody that is interested in in getting the book? Um is it through your site or um are there multiple forms?

1:32:31There's multiple ways. If you want to get it directly from me um and I I did drop the link in the chat and I can do it again. So on my own site, I have basically the regular version and then also there's a handful of the limited edition, what's called the author's edition that's signed and comes with a little limited edition print. So that's kind of like the cool first edition forever of all time thing. And then you can also get it on Uh just look for the sound philosophy. If you want to take the no no shipping charge route, that's okay. But uh for me

1:33:09right now, like that link that I'm putting in, you get it from me does the most good for me right now.

1:33:16And you might get a special note or something from me.

1:33:22Are you the one that does all of the the uh packaging for your orders?

1:33:27Oh, yes. Um if you order directly from me, that is uh Yes. What's one of the I don't know. It's kind of like a hard job, but I really like uh packaging my own things because over like as I do them and I see people that have purchased from me over time, it's like, okay, put a little bonus goodie in there for the repeat offenders or I like to I like to put drawings on especially on the vinyl boxes. I almost always do a devil bat drawing. So that way rather than just throwing the box away. You get a nice little piece of of original art that's usually

1:34:08personalized. So it's fun. It's more work. But I I I don't know. I think that that is part of the art exchange, too. if you order from me, we're you know, we're talking about it. I am definitely typing your name into the computer, making the label.

1:34:28Putting it on there.

1:34:31So, yeah, I have a ton of that to do because the pre-sale on this book has been pretty good. So, I'm about to get creamed with [laughter]

1:34:38mail order hell. So, if you would like to contribute to that, please order Um, or get on my mailing list at cursmackey.com, too, is another great way to keep in touch on what's going on with the book and all the shows and

1:34:55I um I've had the privilege of seeing three live curse shows and um and I will say your merch table is beautiful. I love seeing the handcrafted um like pieces of art that you have. Um, and just like I and I I just love like you were saying like you're actually like crafting the package. You're putting little little pieces of love and little pieces of your expression into it as well. So, it's such a special way um to support curse. Um

1:35:29Yeah. And um Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. I I am seeing um people excited about reading your book. Yes. And uh somebody's on your band camp now. Yes. That's awesome. Yes.

1:35:45All right. It is there.

1:35:47Yeah. That's cool. I appreciate everybody for being here and all the questions are great and it and it's it's good to talk about it and see see who's

1:35:59Yes. Oh, I see Clint Carney. Hello, Clint. Thank you so much for being here. I um very much appreciate that we have a lot of artists in the chat and um I think all of us that can relate to um what you're sharing. Um I feel so privileged that I've gotten to read this book. I'm definitely going to be keeping it as a companion guide for sure.

1:36:26Nice. I love what you're doing. I think, you know, it's it's it's great to, you know, the unwritten rules of the road. It's a good concept and you've had some other great guests. So, it's been uh a cool thing to for also for me to learn from others that you've had as guests. Um, keep doing what you're doing. It's it's great.

1:36:48Thank you. It's it's an ongoing journey. um like you've been sharing where I I don't really know where we're going with it, but every conversation is so inspiring and I love it so much and I appreciate it. Um I appreciate our wonderful people who continue to support this and I appreciate you like thank you so much for for taking the time. I mean gosh you are juggling a lot so it's very gracious of you for to take your time to chat with us.

1:37:16Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much. Um well are there any um parting parting wisdoms that you might have for us?

1:37:28I think the most important thing is just um you know take each day as it comes. Uh the challenges or or paths forward. Don't be afraid. Just create and and live your best life that you can. And I mean, you can't control everything going on around you, but you can control what direction you set for yourself each day. Or if you just decide, you know, hey, today I put my feet on the ground, I'm alive, I'm going to have a great day. Even though a bunch of like challenging [ __ ] up [ __ ] may happen at the end of the day, that's just all part

1:38:02all part of it. and and if you can document it and make some art or sing about it and stick with that um that's always an outlet from the challenges and it can be your your your path towards a good life. So for me I found it very gratifying to to work on art as like a I mean in the game of life it's it's a good way to roll. Um, so and and just to have some part of that uh on a daily basis is is a great counterbalance to all the chaos and nonsense going on out

1:38:43that's so beautifully spoken. Yeah, thank you so much, Curse. Um, oh, I'm seeing Burning City is going to see you in Chicago.

1:38:53Okay, excellent.

1:38:54Awesome. Yes, love it. be sure to say hi in person, please.

1:38:58Yes. Yes. Um it's you're in for a treat. Um yeah, because I've I've loved every show that I've gotten to experience and I always appreciate the fact that you take the time to have a chat as well. So

1:39:11Oh, yeah. That's that's fun.

1:39:13Yeah. We'll be in Chicago on May 6th at Reggie's with Sign and Black Season

1:39:20and DJ Vegan in Black. And then uh also on May 8th, I'll be doing a totally different set with Matt Black and Lathe of or Houses of Heaven and that's at Sleeping Village. So two shows in Chicago and then we're doing a sound philosophy thing at the Museum of Po post punk and industrial music. Martin Atkins fine little museum there on Saturday, May 9th. and then Evil Mother's Day guided tour of the museum that I'm hosting on Mother's Day the 10th. And then we're at Fixation Fest at Smalls on May 7th. So that's that's the next next wave.

1:40:00It's a stacked schedule. [laughter]

1:40:04So we're doing it.

1:40:06You're doing the thing. Yes. But all very cool things.

1:40:09Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. I'm

1:40:11Yes. Awesome. Well, um I I again like really appreciate um just you know you as not just your art because your art and your creations are amazing but just your willingness to also share your process and and add some guidance into the into the pool that I think we all

1:40:34Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. I hope everybody has a great night and see you in Chicago and beyond. Awesome. Bye everyone.