Charles Rehill / Lost Signal, in full

1:40Hi friends. I am Tash and we are Unwritten Rules of the Road. Um we are joined today by the incredible Charles Rehill of Lost Signals. Thank you so much uh for joining us.

1:54I am utterly humbled and honored to be here TSH. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm truly flattered. Don't know why anybody want to talk to me, but hey, uh [laughter] you have my complete and undivided attention. Okay. Okay. So, first of all, like, okay, your music is amazing, but if I were just to get this snapshot of you in your current situation, I would be like, how could anyone not want to talk to you? Like, [laughter] holy cow.

2:23Yeah. Uh I I have had several people walk in here and just go like why? Um it it's uh yeah I I like to think that everybody contains multitudes. Um and I think this this particular space that I'm in is kind of a personification of the the maximalism that uh I kind of tended to develop.

2:48I promise it's not my whole personality, but I'm kind of improvisers.

2:53I mean, that's I am a fellow like uh keyboard player and so Wonder

2:59I'm like, can we please just jump in and talk about this amazing situation going

3:04Oh, sure, sure.

3:07So, I live in upstate New York in uh the like upper northwest corner of the Catskills. like basically as far away as you can be from the city while still considering it like you know uh anywhere anybody want to be. It's incredibly rural. Uh takes at least 25 minutes to get into the nearest town. We got a grocery shop, which sounds a lot more dramatic than it is, but I've just got a very different sense of time from living here. We're like, "Oh, you're only two hours away. Like, you're you may as well be neighbors. It's no big deal to just drive all day to go see somebody." like

3:40uh uh last weekend I went to see my uh my friend Aan uh in Noir and uh he was playing in the Catskills. So, we absolutely had to go and I completely overestimated that it was 2 hours and 15 minutes to the venue each way. So, getting home was a little little rough. But anyway, uh long story short, I live in the country. Uh on the property was this old blacksmith shop. And even when I came to look at it more than just about 10 years ago, uh this blacksmith shop immediately captivated my imagination. I'm like, I want that to be my studio. And it wasn't until maybe 4

4:17years ago that I finally had the capital to make the improvements needed to be to make it actually livitable, livable. Uh not just uh with the proper amount of electricity, but just there was no insulation. You could literally see outside and up here. It's not it's not unusual to go 5 to 10 below. Uh so it was not a not a space worth working in. Um so it just needed a lot of money to be able to build it up properly and make it into something I could keep stuff in. And then it had to fill all my uh my synthesizers and drum machines and my

4:54console and uh all of that as I'm sure you can probably imagine is a constant work in progress. I am right now in the middle of a massive rewiring effort. Um, I like to say that I'm in the the level of my nerd dumb where I've graduated to like I'm making my own cables. And it it's mostly just because uh uh the cable management when is just insane. And you know, you really shouldn't have things spooled up and like cabled off just as a electrical rule. So I've had to start making custom lengths of cables. So, you know, we're sitting there watching like period dramas while I'm sitting there

5:32soldering. Uh, yeah, that that that's about the extent of my technical prowess when it comes to like repairing stuff. But, uh, yeah,

5:42very long-winded way of saying welcome.

5:46Okay. Okay. So, I'm sorry. Can we nerd out for a second or or two or three? Um, so please educate me on the proper like uh spooling or non-spooling rather of of a cable.

5:59So, well, it it's more on the electrical side of things, but you you're just as a rule supposed to leave ca power cables unspooled. Uh, it it really shouldn't matter that much with instrument cable or or uh or microphone cable, but it does just get messy. Like I realized that I had maybe um I I'm trading out what you don't see is right in front of me is a big analog recording desk and I went last summer and rescued an even bigger analog recording desk. One that some of my colleagues were like, "No, you need to go get that one." So, uh in order to get that new one in and this

6:35old one out, I literally have to pull everything apart. And I realized that um it's as it's even bigger that I lost so much space just due to the fact that there's just like piles and piles of cables everywhere just from things connected into other things. And they're all hanging from the ceiling, too. All the ones, the extras. It's Yeah, it's it's nuts. I wish I could do I'm I'm planning on doing a studio tour one of these days, but it's kind of one of those when I'm finished that, you know,

7:05never comes. [laughter] Well, I think it's amazing. I mean, like gosh, it's like from from what I've read about you and what I'm discovering right now. Um, just the fact that you've poured in so much um like energy and love into your equipment, into your space, into your studio. Um I I was reading that your first album was produced by Tom Shear. Yes. Um who who we're actually going to have next week. I just love the small.

7:35Oh, yeah. I I love Tom. I haven't actually I just realized this this morning. I haven't actually been in the same room with Tom since I want to say maybe 2008 2009. So, it's been um a long time, but he's actually not super far away from me. And my work regularly takes me through his area. So, I've made it a point uh so that we can share the same space instead of just a release day and a couple remixes in the last year. Uh but Tom has always been uh a huge source of inspiration and guidance especially.

8:10I mean

8:12I I was literally the way that that came uh to pass back uh in the the early days um so to speak. He was the first among us. He got signed to at the time it was Gashed Records in Canada. There was there's two independent labels as uh as Ian was saying two weeks ago that like Yeah. Inception Records and Gashed. And I know that they were like battling it out for uh uh Fleshfield, but he went with Inception. Tom went with A23. Uh Tom with Gashed and immediately took off like a shot, you know, instantly. Uh Assemblage 23 really caught on and I was

8:54putting together I had just finished my first EP and I did that entirely on my own in my own little home studio. Um, well, I was in college and I met Tom at a diner after a club night. I think that was I remember it was the South Street Diner in Philadelphia cuz he was still living in Philly at the time, but I don't remember exactly what we were there after, but it was late. And I just said, "Please, can you help me?" And he's like, "Sure." You know, and apparently that was all it took to talk him into it. But I then lugged all

9:26of my keyboards to his house every weekend on the R5 train like in the suburbs of Philly for like six weeks straight. I mean, I might be misremembering as it's been so long, but uh poor Tom would pick me up from the train station cuz I didn't have a car and I would spend the entire day with him. Uh I would send him the MIDI file for the track during the week and then he would get everything ready. We record my keyboards and stuff like that and then he would send me a rough mix to hear usually the week after and we did it that way and that was before he

10:00started recording failure. So to put it on a a time frame of that kind of thing and at the time I just didn't have the skill level to or the confidence to do it on my own and I didn't really possess even the right equipment to really get the polished result that the label was looking for at the time. And that that's kind of how that came to pass. But uh uh kind of went uh uh ary not long after that and uh that was when my career on the other side of the industry kind of started concurrently.

10:40Wow. Gosh. Speaking of uh Fleshfield, by the way, um yeah,

10:44uh Fleshfield is in the chat and says, "Do you have chickens, Charles?"

10:48Do I have chickens? No. Uh, so we want them. Uh, we have sometimes Canadian geese that we don't want. You're welcome to have those. At this point, we just have a cat and a dog. No animals. Uh, unfortunately, my wife and I both travel too much uh to be able to sustain any type of wildlife or I'm sorry, any type of like farm animals at the moment. But if we could, we certainly would. We would probably have chickens and if I had my say, probably a donkey. And you know if my wife had her say probably

11:22Oh [laughter] dream dream field in the future. Yes.

11:28Yes. Absolutely.

11:31Oh also um Paul Paul uh Seagars is saying assemblage 23 represents.

11:38Absolutely. No. Paul actually Paul is responsible for uh for the way that I sing because before there was even uh before I even finished that very first demo EP that I did, I had like two or three songs and now that I'm thinking about it, it was before Tom agreed to do it. I drove up to New York City and they were playing they were playing at Downtown or the Batcave or whatever it was called at the time. Uh, and I went and met Paul afterwards and I'd known him from like online uh, news groups and stuff, introduced myself, and I gave him a copy of my demo, and I was at the

12:18time, I mean, I'm going to blame it on being in the '9s, but I the first round of vocal recording I did, I just like whispered into the microphone and then ran through a distortion pedal. And Paul was like, "No, you need to really sing." And he's like, "You" He's like, "What's your singing voice like?" And I'm like, "It sucks." He's like, "How do you know that?" I'm like, "I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it does. I don't know what I'm doing." He's like, "No, but he does. You should." And then he told me the story of how Seal was just a studio producer and didn't know how to sing or

12:46said he didn't know how to sing and literally just ended up recording uh when the session singer that he had hired didn't show up and then launched his whole career from there. Um, so it it was just one of those things that Paul pushed me into actually singing and uh you know so I I owe him for that. So no chickens uh Paul either but [laughter] but he can be blamed if especially if you don't like my voice.

13:15You have a beautiful voice actually.

13:17Oh, thank you. You're too kind.

13:18Yes. Yes. I'm I'm actually I'm a Texan as we discussed before the thing. So we kind of say it like it is. And you really do have a beautiful voice.

13:26That is extremely kind of you to say. Thank you.

13:31Well, I wanted to actually go back to um you you were talking about um like feeling like, you know, in the beginning that you weren't confident with being able to produce your your own music and as well as like, oh, I'm not sure about my voice. Like I I was wondering like what what were the steps that you took to like grow, I guess, to to reach the point that you are now? So, I think on this a lot because I try very hard not to regret anything or stay too much in the whatif mindset. And I've had what I feel through, you know, lots of

14:15therapy, a very magical and blessed life. I've been very lucky in a lot of Uh, one of those things I was blessed with was unfortunately not a lot of self-confidence. And I think that when I first put myself out there, it's hard to put yourself out there, period. It's it's hard to be being vulnerable sucks and being uncomfortable is is just something you have to grow accustomed to. But uh I just was not able to turn off the voices and I could not turn off the criticism. And you know, for every positive nice thing that anybody said about what I was doing in the early

14:572000s and like when Future Pop was starting to take off, I don't remember any of it. I can tell you every negative review I've ever gotten

15:06because that's what I remember. And I will say that like things have come very far in the in the years since

15:13that uh uh they are far kinder even when they don't like something. It's okay to not like stuff, you know, but you you shouldn't have to burn down the building to tell them that, you know, you just thought it was a little overcooked. Like that that's not necessarily the proper response. But uh uh a lot of things I had to basically go out there and figure out who I was, what I was doing, and why I was doing it. And rediscovering that why was the most important thing. So I never stopped writing. I just had to take a break from everything to figure out where my joy was coming from and how

15:49to tap into that directly. So through that I learn to love myself and be kinder to myself so that I can start expressing myself again and not matter, you know, like if people like it and people want to get behind it and show up to my shows and like

16:07I'm over I'm I'm overjoyed like it it is the as I'm sure you're aware and you know Paul and Ian can attest like performing live is just one of the the highest highs you can reach you know natural naturally and I just can't get enough of it. But it also can lead to the lowest lows once you start getting in your own head about it. And you know, I had to get to the place where I can do these things again and none of those other people matter that it's just I'm doing this primarily for myself first.

16:43That's where the confidence comes from.

16:46Yeah. And then the professional career behind that also, you know, didn't hurt.

16:50You know, having some authority. But like even as far as the confidence thing, like I had it as a narrative for a long time when working with employees and co-workers and training and doing all that stuff. I used to tell people as a rule, never play people your music because of one of two things is going to happen. They're either going to be really intimidated because you're so good or they're going to be like, "Wow, that guy really sucks. I shouldn't listen to him." So, it was this this this weird, you know, I I didn't leave any room for gray area. And I feel like

17:20I did myself and anybody who was listening to me and took me seriously at the time, I did them a huge disservice. You know, this it is something that is meant to be shared.

17:29If you want to share it.

17:32Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's true. And and there's different ways that you can share it, whether it's just from the studio or even playing live. And I I know you have a show coming up actually.

17:44I do. I do. Uh I kind of talked Ian into that one. I will take some some credit on that. Uh uh I'm actually working on a bunch of them right now, but uh the one that is currently announced as of this uh the time of this recording is with Fleshfield in on Thursday, June 4th in Arlington, Virginia, just outside of DC. That's something that I've wanted to do for so long. And the last time we played together literally was DC far longer than I probably ever want to

18:19That's so exciting. So, um, do you have any envisionment of how you're going to be approaching your live show? Are you still playing around with it?

18:27So, I did a date uh this past October with Mntalo and the Fixer in Pittsburgh and it went off perfectly. Uh, this latest iteration, I tapped my dear friend and recent collaborator Tyler Matthews of Circuit Preacher to help me out with backing keyboards and guitar for the first time. Uh, that I because I've started incorporating that into more into uh um my music to start with. And he's just ridiculously talented and I've been playing around with the visuals a lot. I'm I'm very lucky that also another one of my close friends since the beginning owns a lighting company. So, it was like, "All right, well, how are we going

19:12to design the lighting? How are we going to what are we going to do with video? How's the the the the tracks going to work?" And I guess also most importantly is I've learned how to manage my anxiety and my stage fright, so to speak. And I'm taking the right healthy steps to managing that to focus on the instead of just going like, "Oh, I'll just have a couple shots before I go up there and hope for the best."

19:38Yeah, I don't do that anymore.

19:43By the way, um, Flashfield says, "Yeah, it required a ton of convincing." Charles says, "Want to play a show together, Ian?" Yep, I sure do.

19:52No, absolutely. You know, I I I do not mean to diminish Ian's spirit whatsoever. I just

19:59uh I think I may have just chickenened out at first and asked Rick like, "Hey, do you think Ian be into this?" And you know, but I should have just texted him directly. Ian is [laughter] wonderful. And I'm glad you're in the chat, buddy.

20:14A Oh, um Paul is saying, "Do you still have you expander?"

20:20I do not. And so, and again to go to like the different reiterations, I didn't actually have an Oberheim expander. I had a Matrix 12. Uh, if I had a bunch of synth nerds in the chat, the amount of things that I've owned uh that I had in my collection and then sold, it would make people cry cuz I had not it wasn't like one Fender Chroma Polaris. I had three of them. I had pile of Poly 6s. I had two RP 2600s. I had two Minio Moges. I had an Oberheim Matrix 12. Uh an OB1. Um a lot of weird rare. And of course, like this is not

21:01when they were going for 30,000. A Jupyter 8. I had Jupiter 8 that uh you know, I used for years, but I didn't use it a lot for lost signal because it didn't have MIDI on it. And because it didn't have MIDI on it, it didn't get played very much. And then it was one of those things that uh um I was going through some major life changes and I couldn't find anybody that was able to fix them. So, like

21:25uh my album Eviscerate, I wrote that all with a Roland TR99 and one day I went to turn it on and blue smoke came out of the power supply and the repair cost me $2,000 and took three years

21:40because there was just wasn't anybody

21:42in and this is this isn't super long ago. This is probably maybe like 2010, 2011. But even then the amount of people willing to work on vintage synthesizers and who well were not on the other side of the country like even in New York or Philadelphia or anywhere on the east coast there there wasn't anyone you know uh even one of my Oberheims I had to keep shipping it to uh um a technician that was in the Mojave Desert like in a uh living in a geodic dome and who had a synth for like I want to say a year or two. So, there wasn't the market for it.

22:19They weren't getting that much money and there was nobody to fix them. So, I felt like I had these ticking time bombs. So, I unloaded um more than I probably ever should have cuz there's no way I could ever afford to buy a Matrix 12 in 2026.

22:37But I do have the great Arteria recreation of it, which I will say sounds pretty damn good. I was curious actually, um, are any of these synths used live or do you just keep them in the studio? Um,

22:52so I think when I play live, I'm mostly focusing on vocals. I think I'm going to bring out uh one that I I've been playing recently. I'm either going to bring out the Hydroynth Explorer or the Arteria Mini Freak. one of those two just for a little noodling around and and uh possibly for vocoder, but I don't take anything uh vintage and of value just because there's too many variables. And honestly, even with the modern stuff, um the modern Oberheims and modern sequential, there is still a a tuning element to it. Mhm.

23:31maybe 6 months after I got my OBX8, I thought it was dead because every time I turned it on, I would keep tuning it and it would just keep tuning badly. And it turns out that there's a whole tuning table in there that you have to refresh every once in a while. Otherwise, uh, it has to acclimate to the proper environment. So, I have to tune it in the summer and then it'll get its summer tuning and then I have to tune it when it's cold and that way it'll have its cold weather tuning so that it it'll actually somewhat stay where uh where it's supposed to.

24:03That is not something I want to worry about on stage. So, trying to keep as minimal problems as possible is uh

24:13the way to go with that.

24:15Absolutely. And gosh, I feel like I'm just learning something just talking like I feel like it's something that you would only know as owning these particular synths as well.

24:26Yeah. Well, I the thing is is that uh something interesting that I learned through uh through the industry is when you get into like the the high-end analog synthesizers, specifically things like um and I'm talking like not necessarily like Moog Messenger or Sequential Forum, but things like a Profit 10 or an OBX8 or uh um the Moog One. All of the the primarily the buyers for those aren't necessarily musicians. They're more engineers,

24:59you know. uh my my dear friend and longtime co-orker Dan Gil who is the uh the product manager for Akai. We used to call them internally blues lawyers because, you know, if you look at like the guitar side of the industry, you'd have you'd have these uh these guys that were lawyers that would own law firms and they would they would be the ones buying these 10 $15,000 PRS 10 top uh guitars at Guitar Center and like they'd sit on a stand next to a Marshall amplifier in their office. That's the blues lawyer. you know, that is not that's who they build that guitar for. It is not the everyday guy who's

25:42like gigging on a Friday night. Uh it's specifically for that person who has that income. And I found it really interesting that on the opposite side of that, it's engineers and people who don't identify as musicians that want these like crazy technical things. Uh it's the I I find it's also even the same with modular. Not that there aren't lots of musicians that use it, but there's a lot more people than musicians that find this stuff really

26:10Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting to me as well because um in the realm of electronic music, I I I personally find um when a sound comes from synthesis, I I feel it more. And it's not even something I can put my finger on, right? I can't quite describe it in words or put my finger on it, but when I was listening to your music, I was like, it it really hits me. I mean, not just the beautiful vocals and lyrics, but I'm like, the music feels like it comes from a really deep organic place. So, I I do think that there's something very unique um that this kind of synthesis brings to

26:50Well, thank you. That's incredibly high praise. And for what it's worth, I'm a big fan of what you do as well. And I was even thinking earlier that like that your choice for sound design with Alice is very similar. Like I would have chosen a very similar sound. That's really Yeah, it it it does just come down to style preference, but uh when it comes to composing, I usually have a sense of what sound I want before I even start. It's, you know, then pulling it out of things tends to be the the the time consuming chore. I I love that that you actually share

27:24that with Ian because that's something we talked about is just like like you're you have this ability to hear the sound before and then part of the craft is learning how to actually like create the sound that you're hearing in your head.

27:38Yeah. And I do I will usually when I get something uh my policy is is that if I'm able to get a song or a musical idea out of an instrument it's worth it. Like hey did you buy that thing? Like yeah I did and then I wrote a song with it and it was an awesome song and I'm happy. If I never touch that thing again I got my value out of it. It inspired me to do something you know. Um, I was just thinking about that earlier today. The I have a I have a profit 10 uh a new built one um from my time

28:15working for Sequential or for Novation Focus right the the parent company. And when I got it home, the first thing I did was build a bass sound. And immediately that then turned into Falling on My Sword. Like

28:30within the first 10 minutes of having it, I just came up with this repetitive baseline. I'm like, "This is gonna be a song." and that yeah and I can't even remember now at this point if that baseline is actually profit 10 but that's what I wrote it on and therefore immediately like that purchase was worth it I'm glad I got that thing

28:49that's awesome gosh really does it's it is like like you were saying it's it's amazing how you're like okay if this is the thing that I get out of it it's so worth it

28:59um yeah

29:01hey the more things you get out of it and the more value it has wonderful But as far as I'm concerned, like if it's a even if it's a $10 toy and it brings you brings you an idea that you didn't have before, then you know it served its purpose. It it achieved its uh it its goal in existence for lack of a better

29:21Yeah, absolutely. Um just wanted to take a moment to to say howdy to our wonderful friends in the chat and thank you all so much for hanging out with us. Um, we have a question from um, and I'm so sorry if I mispronounce this, um, Anna Cronin. Um, have you ever received any training for vocals? And if so, how did you go about doing it?

29:43So, I did I want to say maybe a year or two ago, my wonderful wife gifted me vocal uh she had asked around and there was a local uh local university that has a music program and then put me in touch with one of their vocal coaches. So I brought I ended up only doing a handful of lessons and uh ultimately the the issue that I ran into with them was that we were rehearsing my stuff and I'd never actually written out sheet music for it. So, we're working off the pre-recorded stuff, but the the lessons that I got from it in breath control and

30:23pitch control were uh absolutely invaluable of like just learning how to control your error intake and that. But uh the biggest thing was the the problem that I ran into with with lessons was that I was basically asking for something impossible which was the the time that I need the the the help is when I'm writing it. So when I am putting a song together and I don't quite have the vocal line nailed yet when I record it sometimes I've recorded it like I'll do like 10 takes and then unfortunately all 10 takes will be different but then you have to pick one and go that's the one that's the

31:07actual vocal melody that's what I'm going to stick to and then I go back and then I'll rehearse that one for another three or four weeks and make that one so that it's permanent you Uh it doesn't say practice makes perfect. Practice makes permanent.

31:23So it's always making sure that like all right, I got the the right one with the right notes. Uh but I I will admit my secret that I do also do a lot of editing on the production side of things to to make sure that all my all my stacked vocal channels are all lined up properly and there's no like squidgy notes in there. Uh it's it's time consuming, but it's this is the voice that I have, so I have to work with what I was born with.

31:55Well, I think that's actually part of the art and the craft. Um so it's I I just I love um just music in general, but just the fact that,

32:04you know, there's so much that goes into the production of a song. So, you know, we're talking about the the the synthesizer aspect and the production aspect and, you know, there is an absolute art to being like, okay, how do I want my voice to sound to the world?

32:20You know,

32:20absolutely. Yeah. And I think that today there's just infinitely more possibility. It's almost uh it's almost too much where you just have an instant like my son is now into this. He's uh just turned 15 years old and just came to me one day out of the blue two years ago. Like I've been trying to get him into music all along. When he comes to me like two years ago, he's like, "Hey dad, I'm putting out an album next week." And I'm like, "Okay." Yeah. And he just did it all on his own. No help from me whatsoever. Even has a band name called uh Night Shifters.

32:57And just a really funny little side note where he's up visiting me one weekend and was going to dinner or something like that. He's like, "Oh, I need to work on a remix this weekend." I'm like, "Oh, cool." He's like, "Yeah, someone reached out to me and they want me to remix their song." And I'm like, "Oh, who is it?" He's like, "It's this guy Matt Matt Fa Finale." I'm like, "Costic?" He's like, "Yeah, yeah, that's it." I'm like, "You're remixing Costic." and he's like, "Yeah, yeah." And so if Matt happens to be listening, you know, I'm not to say that uh he is, but hi,

33:33friend. Uh he says he's still working on it for you, but uh but yeah, Matt had like reached out to him and just like, "Hey, would you mind remixing a song for me? I just thought that was the the coolest and nicest thing that gave him a massive boost in confidence." But my son got into it just by playing around in Garage Band and like finding loops to put together and finding the the onboard synthesizer just on an iPad. He's working with a little bit more than that now, but uh you know it there's definitely not the barrier of entry that there used to be as far as getting into

34:06the production techniques. And you know, for better or for worse, if you know what you're doing, it speeds up your workflow like that. I can bang out a whole song and now in a day that would have taken me weeks to do even 10 years ago. So for that I'm super grateful for the infinite possibilities.

34:26Yeah, absolutely. Well, um there there's actually a a a beautiful question in the chat, another one from Anna Cronin. Um as someone that wants to develop analog and modular synthesizers as a hobby and now has space for it, uh where do you So, uh, are you asking if you want to develop like your own modules or you just want to get into modular synthesis?

34:54Well, let uh, so there's a little bit of a delay between the Zoom and the So, we'll Yes. Um, yes. So, to be to be to be seen. Yes.

35:04Uh, modular, when it comes to to modular, I got into it a little early. Um, so like this monster over my my shoulder here. I started building it uh a little over 20 years ago and through this company synthesizers.com in Texas uh by this inventor Roger Eric who at that point like there really wasn't. You had Dopeer, which was the the German small Euro rack format, which at that point was just like, oh yeah, they're Dopeer. They're small. And then you had a choice of mother of the modular, MOTM, and then you had The synthesizers.com ones were pre-built. It didn't require any soldering. and they had a uh a monthly

35:51subscription where for a $100 a month you send them a hundred bucks and they would send you an oscillator and then the next month they'd send you a filter and then they would send you a power supply and then a MIDI to CV converter. So, it wasn't a big system, but after 12 months, you had a really basic like almost a mini moog in a 22 space cabinet uh made out of like just MDF, which was fine and it was a great starting point, but there, you know, very fortunate uh very quickly what ends up happening is immediately you just start filling the rest of it. Uh I love this format, the

36:31dot. It's like the original clone of the the old Moog 55 uh format. But I think if I were doing it over, I probably would have gone Eurorack, but then this room would entirely be nothing but Eurorack and I'd be completely surrounded on all sides because they are much cheaper. They're much easier to build. And the Sonic um the sonic possibilities are absolutely endless. Like you can get a Euro module that does practically anything. You can get an entire digital synthesizer in a tiny little Euror module. You can do full sequencers. You can do if you want one that is just clap sounds, you can do it. It's there's very

37:16little limit to it. I think if I were even starting out to get really specific, uh, Erica makes a great kit that you can get that has just the basics of an oscillator, a filter, an envelope, an amplifier, multiples, converter in a small format so that you at least have something to play with.

37:37Um, Anacron says get getting into modular synthesis, but eventually both.

37:43Okay. Uh, I'd also recommend if you have the capability of doing so, there's a a wonderful convention in September in uh, Shamberg, Illinois. I think it's I pronounce it properly. I usually call it Scumbberg and it makes everybody really mad. Uh, in the sh suburbs of Chicago, uh, a very dear friend, a guy by the name of Suit and Tie Guy, he throws this con every year called Knobcon. And instead of it being a trade show, it's literally a convention for synth nerds. So all the big synth companies go. A lot of the guys who invent these things will will be there. So like Glenn Darcy from

38:25Ashton Sound Machines, ASM, he's usually there. Uh Cory Banks or Modb um trying to think like all of them. They're the all the companies, major companies are represented, but it is just literally uh some of these guys just made them in their in their basement the the weekend before and like, "Hey, I've got this new module." Um it's created this entire community that wasn't there before. And this resurgence, it it still continues to grow. Every couple years, everybody's like, "Well, this is it. We've reached peak synthesizers. It's all downhill from here." And then more stuff comes out and more people come to the party. And the more people there are, the more

39:05attention it gets, brings in more people, and then there's more stuff, and the prices come down dramatically. It's just it's a really great time to get into it.

39:14And so, yeah, go to Knobcon. It It's not expensive. The rooms aren't much. The entire weekend is not a lot, but

39:21you'll come away having learned uh I wouldn't use the phrase drank from the fire hose, but at least you'll find an entry point that resonates with you. And ultimately all the advice in the world won't make a bit of difference if you don't find the thing that speaks to you.

39:39Yeah, it's so true. There's some there is something about getting your hands, you know, just into it and being like, okay, what actually sounds and feels right. So

39:50I mean, I wish that everybody could start with a Mini Mog or an ARP 2600, but that's not economically feasible.

39:56Uh but there are a lot of really high quality things crammed in little boxes. Like I love what is it? The Uno Synth Pro X. It's over my shoulder flashing away. I think that thing's amazing. Like what it's capable of. You know, even 15 years ago, we were not able to do that level of analog circuitry for under $1,000, let alone under $500 in such a small box with memory. Like, you can save presets. You know, I remember the first time we showed off the uh the Mini Brute, the very first edition of that at the NAM show in 2012. Everybody kept coming up and go like, "Well, how do you

40:38save the sounds?" And I'd literally pull out my phone and like take a picture and they'd be like, "Well, why doesn't it why doesn't it have why can't you just save them on the synthesizer?" Be like, "Well, that would have cost a couple hundred bucks more and this is a $500 synthesizer." And at the time, they go, "Wow, 500 bucks, that's it." You know, we've come a long way even since then. Yeah. Yeah. Well, something that you just mentioned um is that you were like, "Well, um uh you know, something that has would take me a much shorter amount of time would have taken like so much more before and

41:13and and I was wondering like how did you propel yourself forward in in when you have the learning curve?" because I think it's a lot easier to show up at the page when you're already adept at something, but it is so much harder when you're like, gosh, I don't even know what I'm doing. you know,

41:30I had a product specialist that worked with me at my my current company that unfortunately just passed away last year. And he was he was uh he'd been doing this for maybe 40 years or so, like on the road showing off specifically proauudio equipment. And one of the things that he had said about some of the assistant tools that are available now is that it just gets you 90 to 95% of the way there without having to have your input. So the way he likened it to was like it's going to pull your car into the driveway for you. It's up for you up to you to drive it

42:14those last 10 feet into your garage.

42:16Like that's that's what it is. knowing the rules is just great when you know how to break them. And I know that you you've talked about music theory in here uh on the show before quite a bit. And it's all useful to know, but it's only useful to know when you're breaking it. You know, it's not necessarily something that the average person, you know, you just do what sounds good. And a lot of these tools um you can even think of like plugins like sonnable and you know a lot of the waves the silk plugins that they've got now like you just hit on and it's going to do all the

42:51things that I would have done you know having spent the majority of my life figuring out what a compressor does and how it's going to work best in this particular scenario. But you just tell it, "All right, I'm feeding it a baseline and hit go and it's going to get you where you need to be or at least within a couple little minor tweaks." Like, it's going to sound good.

43:13Yeah. Uh the bigger problem that people will run into is still more of the understanding of how a composition comes together and like where sounds will fit together as that that tends to be the one thing that I think really sets apart. Uh you know listening to something and thinking oh that might that doesn't sound done yet or that might sound I hate to use the word amateur-ish because who's who's to say who's uh amateur who's a professional. But I think it it comes down to finding where those things fit together to not have it to be too crowded. Um yeah, I realize I'm rambling now, but uh

43:52get the thought out. They'll get you most of the way there.

43:55Yeah. Yeah.

43:56Even if you don't know what you're doing and then do you have to?

44:01Like it it I don't know how to program computers, but the previous generation did because that was how you got a computer to work. you know, uh, I can change an oil on a car and I can tune a carburetor, but I can't work on a modern vehicle, but the previous generation could. So, I think that, you know, by removing those barriers, you're getting to the thing that you want to do the the

44:24Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you're saying as well that ultimately it's really like you were mentioning the $10, you know, synth that can that can bring you the joy or give you the expression or the song or whatever like Yeah,

44:40I think ultimately, yeah, it just comes down to like how you actually use the thing, right?

44:45Of course. I mean, it's up to you to still make the art. uh which which does the other if I can offer more unsolicited advice is that uh and I I think I I'm either stealing this from Venus theory or Ben Jordan but both of them wonderful human beings is to make music that sucks. It is important to play. It is important to do things that you are not going to ever put out. It's important to experiment. There is no such thing as a waste of time when it comes to finding joy in this stuff. And you know, I I I felt a little vindicated two weeks ago when

45:22when Ian was saying that he's got, you know, he used to do uh have hundreds and hundreds of throwaway tracks. Uh it breaks my heart a little to think that there's hundreds of hours of of Fleshfield out there that we never got to hear. But uh I'm almost the opposite where everything back then had to be so focused and so perfect. But now I've just got hundreds of hours of stuff and a lot of momentum behind it that now it's like am I going to release this? Am I going to turn this into a full track? I'm going to keep this idea for later that's on the back burner. Jump into

45:52this next idea that I'm really excited about. But it's just continually playing and experimenting and having fun. That's the most important part. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's again going back to, you know, what you were talking about earlier, which is like really [sighs] like rediscovering your voice and and um it's like you're stripping down all of the onion lers layers to get to that point, you know?

46:22Pretty much.

46:26Um Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Well, I was going to say uh uh when I did finally decide that I was going to ready to start releasing stuff, I realized that I had maybe three to four hours of ambient tracks and sound design stuff that I just done uh over the course of the previous three or four like uh um just before the pandemic then during uh when I really started to get dedicated with it again. I I joined um Novation, the synthesizer company, and was getting really deep in the weeds. Got reacquainted with uh the big modular behind me, and just started recording again. And it just ended up with hours

47:12and hours and hours of stuff. And I was like, well, what am I going to do with it? And I actually released had that release planned before with the full intention of knowing the next thing I do is going to be Lost Signal again. It was like, I just got to get this out of the way because I still think it's worth hearing and I'm really proud of it and then I'll get on to this other thing. Mostly because I didn't know at the time also, but I'm like, I want to go back to Lost Signal, but I need to make sure that I can.

47:44I need to make sure there's still something there worth exploring. I was reading uh in another interview that you were um uh [snorts] delving into possibly some more music um with Lost Signal. Um is there anything that you're brewing up that that you

48:03So there's a lot uh I'm currently working on a lot. I always have new material. I always have new ideas cooking and uh I'm I'm pretty far along with some other things. But another part of my um my practice, I don't really quite know how to how to word it. The way that I've the way that I structure things, it it literally for me is just about building momentum. And what started as all right, I'm going to work on these ambient tracks. I'm going to have my friend master them. I'm going to get this and then it's step by step by step getting it across the line. Uh, one of the

48:44things that I found that was a trap in stopping me from doing it is talking too much about it until it's uh uh before it's done. Because it turns out you get the same amount of uh um you get the same amount of oxytocin released in your uh your receptors talking about doing something as you do actually doing it. So, I'm really careful. uh not to expand too much on or think too hard on what the end product is going to be until I'm finally done. Once it's done, then I'm going to be like, "Hey, look at what I did."

49:23But, uh, I find that also it kind of turns into that trap. And I'm sure everybody's kind of run into that situation before where you have that one person that talks about what they're going to do and they talk about what they're going to do and they talk about what they do going to do and when it comes to it, they never actually end up doing it. Mhm.

49:40And I know I've been guilty of that and I just I don't like uh you know throwing that out in the universe. So I've been very careful about making sure that only talk about things I've finished. The last album uh Light of Other Days actually had originally intended to just be an EP. I was going to um release Anatomy and Melancholy and then I had a bunch of songs left over that I had started working on I really loved because as I'm sure everybody's aware like you you finish an album, you you write it, you record it, you mix it, and then you send it off for mastering and

50:19then it goes to label and then it they've got to figure out when they're going to release it. So, there's a long timeline between when I started writing it and when it's actually available in the world. And sometimes that can be a couple months. Sometimes it could be up to a year. In some cases, it could even be a couple years. So, to me, that stuff is already old by the time it's it's out. I've already got a lot more material. And I was working on this EP and then I realized I had more than enough tracks for just a whole another

50:47And I actually [clears throat] didn't know what to do. I sent to Clint uh um our our mutual dear friend Clint Carney and System Sin and he wrote it to me and he's like, "You just have to release this." And I was like, "Okay."

51:05I love that we have um very encouraging friends. I think they help keep us together. [laughter]

51:11I I do. when you know it's it's one thing when you have friends that you deeply love and cherish where uh and and I hope that you know even friends in the in the chat um believe this as well and it's the same thing but like we're not just friends we're also fans you know like I'm a giant fan of of System Sin and a giant fan of Fleshfield and Assemblage 23 and if Paul's still around I still have my manhole Vortex CDs somewhere. Um, you know, and if he wants I can make a copy for him, you know. I'm just drawing [laughter] there. Uh,

51:51but like we're legitimate like fans of each other. Like I love hearing their new material and I get so excited and I will have it cranked in the car, you know, up to the tolerable point of my my hearing will allow for that and and I can't wait to see what they're doing next. It's always so exciting. Um, one other like even little side note, like this last album was the first time I really had a lot of remixes. That's not something in my entire musical career I've ever had much of. I've done plenty of remixes, but I never had many remixes done for me. So,

52:27hearing my friends reinterpret my own stuff was uh uh weird. I mean, it was wonderful. Uh, it was just a very strange feeling to hear my own voice coming out of someone else's music. It was uh, you know,

52:42a cool experience.

52:45I get why everybody likes remixes so

52:48Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it's so interesting to hear. It's like the reflection, like you said, it's a mirror of like their perspective and their expression as well, like reflected back to you of your of your voice. So,

53:01But even then, it was this validation that like they got it. They they understood what I was doing.

53:09Just interpreted in a different way. This is cool.

53:11So, we have an awesome question from Flushfields. Um, would love to know how you go about writing lyrics, Charles. They are always excellent. I agree.

53:21Oh, shucks. Um, [clears throat] it kind of comes up comes out differently every time. And it's always one of those things that I get a lot of anxiety about because when I'm when I'm working on the song and I'm like, "Oh man, I hope I come up with something really good for this." I tend to go back into books really heavily and start reading. There's usually an idea for a theme and an emotion or a moment in time. There's some kind of of experience that I want to I want to express, right? Like a moment in time from my life, a moment in time, even from literary, you know, it

54:06one of those moments. And I will try and pull from that as much as I possibly can. Sometimes it starts from the chorus. Sometimes the chorus is the very last thing that gets added in, but I I tend to be a person with a a journal and a song playing like either on a speaker in my back pocket or with headphones on or while driving. Uh I will put it on and just go for a drive and use the voice notes app and try and sing along with it and get there. Um, but I still read uh as often as possible. I'm trying to make that part of my thing where I

54:49wake up and I read a chapter of something every day or uh open a poetry book. Um, I was even taking a hint from an earlier guest and I had printed out some poems from one of my favorite poetry books, uh, second April by, uh, uh, Edna Vincent Malay just to start trying to internalize things for inspiration for a couple things I'm working on currently. So that a a long and convoluted way of saying I don't really have a preferred method but uh I do agonize over it a lot and go into like a meditative place to try and get it out.

55:29That's really beautiful. I was wondering um like are there any particular books that you're currently reading besides the poetry? Uh right now I've been on a bit of a holiday and just kind of going through uh a lot of recent more modern science fiction that people have been recommending uh pretty heavily. Uh so that's been a lot of fun. I don't necessarily know if any of those are going to end up translating into anything I I well, you know, any songs per se, but usually when I want to write, uh, it comes from something like I I will go back and dive into an Edgar

56:16Allen Poe anthology or, you know, I mentioned it briefly just now, but like u my favorite poet is Edna St. Vincent Malay and she lived um she lived out her final days in a place in upstate New York called Olsters about 2 hours from here. Uh I've actually never been but I have even have one of her poems tattooed on my my rib cage which was a pleasant experience. uh like it it's super inspirational for me and and I don't know why but I just feel like she was a she got me. She's dead a 100 years before I was born, but you know, she got me. Uh

56:59so I I tend to gravitate more to things like that as for you know when I'm trying to draw inspiration for material.

57:09Yeah, very cool. I um I haven't read any uh poetry books in a while, but I'll definitely check her out. Um,

57:16I recommend second a uh second April is my favorite, but you would recognize some of it like because she was uh a pullet surprise winning poet. Uh, I think that's right. I didn't uh intend on bringing her up, but uh like things like burning the candle at both ends, that's one of hers. Uh building uh castles on the sand,

57:42that was one of hers, too. And if I'm remembering correctly, you had a literary reference to that as

57:52Oh, did I?

57:54I think so.

57:56It's entirely possible. I have many things floating in [laughter] the ethers in my subconscious. Yeah, it is kind of funny how things will will come into your periphery and then they get translated in very subconscious ways.

58:10Absolutely. Uh I always find that absolutely fascinating. There's like parts of pop culture and even things that we just don't realize that like are are are there just floating around us or where they actually end up coming from. Yeah. Yeah. Like I have my favorites that are in the current, you know, in the current brainscape. Um I'm I'm currently reading um Project Hail Mary because I'm kind of obsessed with the story. Um All right. Uh well, I won't talk about it until you finished it, but so many people, that was one of the ones I just recently read because so many people came up and said like, "This is

58:44my favorite book I've ever read." I'm like, when that amount of uh of of people kind of say that kind of stuff, uh usually my ears perk up and go, "Okay, well, I need to know why."

58:56And it is a phenomenal book. It is absolutely phenomenal book. I enjoyed every minute of it.

59:01Oh my gosh. Yeah. Andy, like Andy Weir is blowing my mind. I love the I love I love all sci-fi, but the hard science fiction is is impressive.

59:11Yes. Uh I'm actually in uh Threebody Problem right now. I just hit the fway point of that. And it was mostly just because I just started asking around other friends like, "All right, I really love Project Hail Mary. I haven't read a lot of science fiction in at least 10 to 20 years. Like, what do you recommend?" And that was another one that popped up to the top of many people's lists. So, if you have any recommendations, absolutely. I would love to know, too. Well, actually, uh, Paul Seagars is saying, "Check out Banks the Culture

59:40Okay. Definitely. I certainly will.

59:43Yeah. Yes.

59:45I am analog writing it down.

59:50Awesome. Yes.

59:54Culture series. All right. Paul's recommendation done. I just um went to a a Darren Areronowski Q&A because he just released a graphic

1:00:06Oh wow.

1:00:06Um called Human Nature. Um and it was so inspiring because he was talking about um like how a lot of his films started as graphic novels cuz they didn't have the budget for a full film. So then

1:00:20yeah, let's take the approach of just doing the the graphic novel, which is kind of what Andy Weir did with The Martian, you know, just doing like little writings that he shared out on his own site before it became like a fully fleshed out

1:00:33like movie. So yeah. So

1:00:37that's amazing. Of course, a huge Darren Arowski fan as well. I think the first DVD I owned was Pi um back when that was brand new and thought really cutting

1:00:49I my favorite alltime movie I think is the fountain. Um

1:00:53that one is pretty incredible. That [clears throat] one is definitely and I think I probably referenced Ref Reququum for a Dream probably more times than anyone should. I really love though um just like the the storytelling and the surrealism and

1:01:10the dreamscapes. Yeah,

1:01:12agreed. Agreed. In fact, the only movie I ever sampled and it was on Catharsis was on the one that Tom Shear produced. I it was uh What Dreams May Come the Robin Williams afterlife movie. Do you know this one?

1:01:31Oh, it's so good. It's It is an absolutely beautiful beautiful piece of uh of film. I don't know where I was going with that sentence, but I literally like hooked up my old school sampler in my living room with the VHS player and like got it out just so I could get like this one tagline at the end, you know? Uh really amazing and definitely stuck with me. I need to go find that movie. I haven't watched that in a very long

1:01:59I know. I'm like, "Okay, I think I need a rewatch here." [laughter]

1:02:02Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:03Yeah. I think there's certain movies that just like hit you in very specific ways that just stay with you.

1:02:10Yeah. And and for what it's worth, uh Hamnet just completely floored me like that. Uh I don't know if you got had a chance to to watch that yet.

1:02:23No, I haven't.

1:02:24Uh it probably Yeah. I mean, I think Jesse Buckley won the Oscar for it. Not entirely certain because again I don't uh uh I don't keep up with these things probably as much as I should or I'm in a good place with what I keep up with. But it it it vaulted itself to one of my top top three easily if not top two

1:02:50movies of all time.

1:02:52Yeah. Just as far as emotional impact

1:02:55Uh and just so visually beautiful. Yeah. Gosh. Okay. Going on my list, too. I I love that we're we're getting like new things to watch and read. Um Oh, we have another suggestion. Um uh Dusty is saying, uh I've heard the book series of The Expanse is really good and I love the screen version.

1:03:16Very I've heard good things about The Expanse. Yeah,

1:03:19I I am writing that one down as well. Thank you.

1:03:25Yes. doing what I can to try and avoid the little square box of misery that I we have to carry around with us as much as possible. I actually have mine in black and white now so that uh because a podcast just recommended that it'll cut down your screen usage because it's not like visual eye candy. You won't be looking at as often. It is working. I will say that I am not on my phone as much aside from just directly communicating with people which is the whole point of the device. Yeah, I've actually noticed my creativity shifts when I like really limit my my screen time.

1:04:02Yeah, it's it's really and it's only going to get worse. So, it's just putting up healthy boundaries around it and having a uh having a discipline it Yeah. It'll only help.

1:04:18Yeah. Yeah. And I I mean, you know, I I think that no matter what, it's like all of us have it in us to be creative and you'll find your way of expression, but it does help when you set the stage for yourself to make it easier to create. So

1:04:33well we the thing that I have to you have to always remember and keep in balance is that you know for most of the the history of our existence was spent hunting and gathering and like building up these these uh the whole concept of human civilization and where we are even post-industrial revolution is you know Carl Sean would be like oh on the on the history of the universe. We are like on if it was a calendar and the big bang was at the beginning, all of human history is like the last couple seconds on December 31st at 11:59. Uh it's our our our body, our physiology,

1:05:20all of our emotions, all of these things are ancestral. They're they're evolutionary. They're not designed for this stuff. So, we're constantly fighting these these, you know, technology companies that have figured out how to hack our own lybic system and our nervous systems to get us on a dopamine drip of things just by scrolling and and getting validation for things we haven't actually done. And and yeah, uh we could have an entire other another podcast about just that topic alone. But boundaries, boundaries are important. Boundaries set us free.

1:05:56Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh so I had um Curse Mackey on last week. Um Okay. And he just he just wrote a a really fantastic book called The Sound

1:06:06I have it on order.

1:06:08It It's really awesome. And like that's actually something he talks about. Um cuz I think there's a time and place like it's awesome to stay connected and aware and it is a form of expression but then boundaries like the boundary and the time chunking where you're like okay this is my time for this but now I set it down

1:06:26and then I have my time to do the other things in my life you know.

1:06:30Yeah. And and you know it's also that whole mentality of like even you know you cannot take care of anybody else and take care until you take care of

1:06:39You know it's it's

1:06:42your own mental health needs to be at the forefront and we have just an entire civilization stacked against it now. Um and all of this I know it kind of all bleeds together but it's even part of going back to you know my creative process is like do one creative thing every day. do one thing to like just put some energy into something that is bringing you joy every single day and stay present in the moment as opposed to like pushing for goals. I hate goals. It's like once you get to a goal, then what? Then what do you do? You make another goal, you know? It's like it's

1:07:16supposed to be in the moment every time you're doing a thing. That's what should be making you happy. Gosh, I was just thinking about that recently and having a conversation with someone about that where it's like I I feel like especially in entertainment or music, you know, there is always this drive and this push to produce the next

1:07:38Um Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:39Well, even in the way that like albums and music is released now, it's like all right, you get a big huge push and going, "Yay, you did it, your album is out." And then three weeks later, it's going okay, now what are you going to I was like, well, that was a whole thing that took me two years to get to. Like, what do you mean what's going to happen? Like, well, you're no longer relevant. It was three weeks ago. Now you got a tour. It's uh Yeah, it it all of these systems were set up and designed that way to feed, you know, feed this this

1:08:06drip of dopamine and get on this cycle. Uh but it, as I said, the most important thing for me is just continuing to just do one thing or some small little task just to make sure that the momentum If I may ask, uh, have you done the creative thing for today yet?

1:08:26Uh, I did. Uh, I the way that I group my creative things is it can be studio work or it can be sound design work or it could be writing a song. Uh today I made a bunch of cables and um and got everything wired back in here that hadn't been wired in before. So I got to play around with a bunch of synthesizers that were not currently connected to the matrix that's that's running in here. Uh that I haven't actually heard in a number of years. So that was my thing today.

1:09:02Technically for loss signal this counted also, you know, considering the

1:09:06Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. [laughter] No, I think that's awesome. Um Clint was actually sharing that about his daily process as well. Um

1:09:17Oh, cool.

1:09:18Yeah. I was like, and that's a really inspiring thing because I feel like it makes it much more doable if it's just one thing, right?

1:09:28Yeah. But it also it gives you so much of a sense of accomplishment to look back on,

1:09:33you know? It's then you get to look back. It's even uh it was really inspiring and I know this is this going to sound silly but like I was deeply uh uh moved by even what you wrote about me for this podcast because it's weird seeing someone else write about it and I was like oh that's so nice that she wrote all those nice things about me and like did I do that? [laughter] I think I did. Yeah, that was that was me. [laughter]

1:10:06That that was you.

1:10:08But I mean like you don't you don't think about these things a dayto day and you know it.

1:10:15I think it's interesting like you were talking about like when other artists reflect back to you what they perceive of you.

1:10:23Um like the remix, right? And then um it's because the truth be told like I and I love your philosophy on like ultimately you have to create what feels real to you. Um you know um but you know it's it it always is wonderful when you find other people that connect to what you've put out in the world and then

1:10:45on the flip side reflect back to you like hey this is something that I see in you um or this is my experience of what you've put out there you know. Yeah, it's it's I've never really experienced anything like it. I It's also fun just even with collaborating. I haven't had a lot of chance and opportunity to do that before. Uh there's a track out there floating around that I did with um Frank from Seabbound. Uh if you're familiar with them

1:11:18around 2008ish, 2009. and I just wrote a song and then he wrote lyrics and sent me back vocals. And it was just really cool to see how someone else like just wrote a story based off of notes, you know, that I mean I'm used to it, but I do that for my own stuff, but like he literally wrote a narrative and it was a just such a cool experience.

1:11:49Yeah. Yeah. And I I think too it's like um the act of creation together too. It's like um I think you have to be very openhearted for it to really mesh, right? And to have its flow. Yeah.

1:12:05Yeah. And and it doesn't always work. And it's it's it's a risk. And I've talked to several people about this and I think actually this happened with uh with I I owe Clint a lot, but I think one of the things he asked me to do a remix for him I want to say um maybe 15 years ago. It might have been like back in the Pen Dragon days and I never finished it. And it wasn't that the song was bad. It's just that at the time I did not have the inspiration to dive into it properly. And that's always the risk because like if I said, "Hey, uh,

1:12:40you know, send me over a track and I'm going to remix it for you. I want to do a lost signal remix." There's a good chance I'm going to find a way into it. But it's again that kind of magic again of going like, I'm going to get inspired and I'm going to find a way and it's going to be good and the outcome is going to be great and they're going to like it and you know it's going to I'm going to like it also. Um, that's also really important, but sometimes it doesn't happen. And

1:13:11there have been, even in the last year, there's been several times where I've literally just torn it up and started over uh just because I just didn't like the direction that I was going in with something. Uh, and when it's for somebody else, then there's always that expectation of like trying to make them happy with it and make sure that they get what they what they want out of it, especially what it is that they're looking for out of you and setting that expectation up front. Um, but I always now even say that when doing a remix, like, hey, I'm going to do this. I'm

1:13:42going to try and do this. If I can't do it, I will be upfront and I will tell you and I'll tell you why. And it's never anything personal. It's just like,

1:13:49I couldn't come up with anything, you I'm having less trouble with that now, but it it has happened in the past.

1:13:58Well, I think then it keeps your your own artistry. There's an integrity and so you you can trust it. Like if if you you do actually finish the thing, then you know this is something that you really felt and believed in when you put it out there.

1:14:14Yeah. I you know I think that's that's such so much more important than just sort of going through the motions and just being like I'm gonna do this thing because I'm supposed to do this thing but then ultimately you come out with something that you might not be happy

1:14:26Absolutely. And and for what it's worth, like you know, it's funny that I have as I she would hate that I would call her this, but like Nina as a boss because if I said something that wasn't completely genuine, she would just be like, "What is this?" Like Nenah does not hold back if uh you know on her her true thoughts. And so I and I'm super grateful for that, too, cuz I certainly would not want to have um not fully believe in something I was doing. And if it wasn't for them, I'd want them to tell me.

1:15:06Yeah, absolutely. Um for our viewers um that aren't familiar, Nina Hecman is um the head of Metropolis. Yes. Yes. Um, and we had her on here uh several weeks ago. And she also has um the lyrics from Last Signal tattooed on herself. Um,

1:15:27yes. And that's how much love I mean that's that's some real love, you know,

1:15:33you know, and I I mean gosh, you really do write beautiful like heartfelt soulful words. So, um, yeah, I it's talking about the reflection and the she and I talked about this as well, like the full circle, like how you like one artist will translate things in a certain way and it's like you toss the tennis ball over the net and you're like, "Here you go. This is how I see

1:15:55Yeah. And she when I sent her Light of Other Days, you know, she she gave it a listen and gave me her immediate thoughts and she's like, "Yeah, I like this." And she's like, "Well, you know, I think she actually said, she's like, I liked all of them. I wasn't crazy about this song. It's not my style. That's okay." Which, you know, uh, totally cool. And then she was asking about the singles and such. And then not long after she like started texting me and she's like, "I really want to unpack some of these lyrics with you." And started going like really really indepth. And some of them I was even a

1:16:32little caught off guard because they just come to you in the moment. And uh you know I think of it it's like hearkens back to being in high school and in English class and you know like okay what does this mean? What is the symbology of this? Where are you going deeper? And uh like it's not it's something that I've never been pushed with before. Like no one has ever come back to me and gone like hey uh I really want to dig into and really unpack this particular section of what was it that you were getting at the heart at? And you know then we ended up

1:17:05with these collaborative conversations and you know she ended up doing an entire painting for uh you know not the end of me um when that was released based on all the input from all the other artists and stuff that was really really cool. She texted me yesterday and she's like hey I came up with this thought and you know I wanted to see if you if it inspires anything. So, she gave me a prompt to go and and write from and I'm gonna work on it and see if I can make something from it.

1:17:34Oh, I love that. I really love that.

1:17:37Yeah. She's a pretty magical person.

1:17:40Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know any Metropolis artist that I've I've had the wonderful experience of getting to interact with, I can see it's a very beautiful community, you know. Yeah. I'm very very very very lucky.

1:17:57Yeah. Yeah. But I mean like I I I I really love that she could see within your music um and your songs like the power of your lyrics. Like I could see why she would want to unpack that because it's powerful. Um you know and that's something that obviously I think is with the label like seeing that strength in their artists being like all right so let's really dig into the strength of of yours, you know. Yeah, I I could not be more grateful and more humbled by the whole experience. It's uh because it definitely wasn't a financial move. It was more based on something that she just believed in and

1:18:42just try not to let her down. [laughter]

1:18:47I I don't think you are.

1:18:49Sure. Hope not. Uh, [laughter] but I am quite confident that if that day were ever come, she'd be the first to tell me to call me and say like, "Hey, you're inauthentic now." And I'd be like, "All right, [laughter] work on

1:19:01Oh, no.

1:19:02But no, but like I I want that. And that is a a a

1:19:08another little just side note thing that uh years ago someone introduced me to the anagram uh just as a way of understanding myself and I I don't even remember who it was that I would watch being interviewed. It was some other artist in another medium or something like that. Uh they were talking about you know like they have all you have all these personality tests all over the place. the the um especially in the dating world, we're like, "Oh yeah, I'm a I'm a introvert, extrovert, INTG, and those were just labels." Whereas the anagram, for better or for worse, whether you believe it or not, it it it gives you a label, but

1:19:48then tells you what your what your strengths are and who you are when you're at your best, but then it also tells you all of your bad habits and who you are at your worst. So, it's like who you are when you're becoming a better version of yourself and when you're at your best. And then here are the pitfalls that you fall into, you know, that your personality type tends to focus on. And in mine particular, it's said basically that, you know, it's the artistic loner that um very much values authenticity and and vulnerability over all else. So, it's just like I just don't have time for inauthentic things

1:20:27and things that just don't have any feeling behind them and superficial stuff. just like none of that matters to me. I just Yeah. Uh so long story short, uh anyagram, it's a lot of fun.

1:20:39I'll have to check that out. I have to check that out. Yeah,

1:20:42definitely relate. I um I am the girl at parties that's petting the cat. Um

1:20:48and um it's part of the reason I love Unwritten Rules of the Road so much is that I just love like these conversations that I get to have with amazing artists. And

1:20:57Oh, this is cool. I I'm loving talking to you. I am just pretending that we are the only ones talking and that there is no chat room and that uh [laughter] no one is watching and that

1:21:09they are they are there's so much love in the chat for you and [laughter] your

1:21:14and your music um oh Phoenix actually said this was this was really lovely. Phoenix said that your your music is uh

1:21:23I love that word. [clears throat] Yeah.

1:21:25that's incredibly kind. Thank you.

1:21:28Yeah. Well, um going back to um your live show that's coming up with I I I know that um especially like Ian was mentioning this too. It's like I it's so special that you guys are getting to do this show together. Um and and I I and we've been talking about like just being present with the thing that you're doing with no expectation of like, okay, and then what's after that,

1:21:56Um yeah. So, for those of you um on the East Coast, uh please go check out the show. I wish I was there myself. My gosh, it sounds like it's going to be

1:22:07Yeah, it was it was such an absolute thrill to see him perform again at Dark Force Fest last May. I know we didn't get a chance to meet. You were at the one two years ago, right?

1:22:21Yes. Yes.

1:22:22Yes. I saw Clint. I was only there for the day. I was there specifically to catch you guys performing a system sin. Uh and then met up with uh our friend's circuit preacher. Um and that was basically it. I was I was out same day. But last year I was there the whole time and it was just because it was just nothing but friends playing the whole weekend which was just such a wonderful

1:22:47You know Daniel Meyer performing his how job and he had just done the mastering on both Anatomy and now Light of Other Days as well. uh Fleshfield, God Module. We basically had an Inception Records reunion. Uh like because it was those four bands. I think the only one we were missing was but yeah, I can't remember who they were a side project of. Maybe someone on the internet will have to remind me, but that was Ian's first show in 20 years. And I was out there talking to Jim Simmonic from, you know, Distortion Productions and I'm like, "Man, I can't wait to play live." He's like, "You want

1:23:26to play live? How's your October?" And that was like, "Great. Cool." So, I I had that one down. And immediately after that was done, I just like, man, it would be just great if I could just get like Ian and this the two of us. And if this show works, I would love to do more of them. Uh, but I know that Ian's schedule is still like it's got to be oneoffs every once in a while. So, you know, we'll figure it out. We'll make it work. You know,

1:23:52the nice thing about being an adult now is that there it's not the same financial constraints that it was when we were 20 years old and trying to figure out like, all right, I like they played at Dracula's Ball in Philly one year. Uh, and the whole band stayed in my one-bedroom apartment with me in Philly. But like, that was what we could do. We were young and and silly. We all slept on the floor. Uh, and we had a blast and it was the time of our lives, but you know, it's not exactly uh something that I'm willing to subject our partners to or, you know, [laughter]

1:24:37like it's a little more difficult to to put that kind of level together these days. Not to say that, you know, I'm sure I still have people that would be willing to, you know, stay in a in a less expensive hotel room for my sake, but you know, I try not to ask that too

1:24:58Yeah, absolutely. Um, but I, you know, I I do think that's what makes it so special when you do play. It's one of those things where it's like don't do catch this. Don't miss this because you know that's it is something that's very special to that's that is coming. It's like the convergence of the planets and stars are coming together in this po in this moment.

1:25:18Yes, we're all having our Carl Sean moments. Uh [laughter] always come back

1:25:24I have a big Carl Sean tattoo as well. Uh just just throwing that out there.

1:25:30Cool. What What is it if you don't mind me? I have from the uh the the pioneer plaque on uh Voyager 1 uh on the golden disc there is a uh a diagram of where we are in the universe using pulsars as fixed points. So it's that

1:25:48that diagram of where we are. Uh it's like right in the center of my back. Probably doesn't look so great anymore because it was like 15 or 15ish years ago that I got that done. But yeah, that's my my one other big nerdy uh thing other than having a lot of synthesizer schematics um on me.

1:26:07That's awesome.

1:26:09Um by by the way, Ian says um that uh my daughter wants me to let Charles know that she says hi.

1:26:17Hi. I hope you're enjoying this. Oh, and Dusty says you're talking about the show at the Renegade on June 4th.

1:26:27Yes. Yes, that is the one.

1:26:30Yeah. Uh, and I think if I'm following Ian incan correctly, it's the one that just had a recital. And if so, congratulations. It looked amazing.

1:26:38A Yes. [laughter] Um, oh, and Pugsley um 6338 says, "If you somehow make your way to Indiana, especially Monk Muny, um, I will be front and center."

1:26:51Awesome. Yes, I would love to come to Muny. And and I think, you know, for what it's worth, even Paul has driven out uh in my career, I've had to go to Fort Wayne, uh more often than probably any one human should go to Fort Wayne if they don't live there. Uh I they literally the TSA at that airport, which is just like that big. They they were on a firstname basis, uh which was kind of embarrassing. It was a sweet airport. Like there's a little old lady there that greets you when you when you uh are you're leaving the terminal that gives you cookies.

1:27:23Uh but it's

1:27:25I I know it's very very sweet, but there's really not a lot of like heavy industry in in Fort Wayne that are flying in. It's a very small regional

1:27:34but you have Sweet Water. And one year when they were doing their big thing, I was there for a Kai. I was showing off a new MPC and Paul drove out and it was made my whole weekend, made the whole trip for me. uh just to be able to nerd out with a friend for a bit. [clears throat] But all that to say, still the most powerful thing that you can do to get your favorite band to come and play your town is to let the local promoter know that you want them. Mhm.

1:28:00You know,

1:28:01if there is a scene, if there is somebody that is booking shows,

1:28:05uh, tell them that you want your favorite band to come

1:28:09cuz that carries infinitely more weight than me writing to them and me telling them, "Hey, I want to go play your town." They're going to be like, "Who? I don't you don't have any fans here. I don't know who you are. What's your draw?" And so that carries 10 times the weight than it does coming from me.

1:28:26Yeah. it and it helps too if you're not as familiar with the the scene there. Um, you know, if if you are familiar with who's booking shows like where where they're happening, that really does help as well. So,

1:28:39Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Um, uh, uh, Pugsley says, "I'm literally trying to find a venue. The closest thing might be Roas Cocktail Bar."

1:28:51awesome. Yeah. Awesome.

1:28:53I'm down.

1:28:54Yeah. will involve a bit of driving, but uh you know, I always wanted to see my why not.

1:29:02Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean gosh, like um there's just so many really really awesome music scenes in the in the Midwest that we've experienced in Illinois and Indiana. So,

1:29:14Oh, absolutely. In fact, you know, back when Fleshfield, Assemblage 23 and Lost Signal and all that, like the one it it was so funny, like the biggest uh venue for performing live back then was in Cleveland, Ohio. It was not even in Cleveland. It was in the suburbs of Cleveland. And Paul and Ian, if you're still listening, I have such fond memories of Captain Ahab's Goth Industrial Club. Uh, you know, it was it was in an old seafood restaurant. So, like the front of house console was in a big wooden ship that came out of the dance floor. Uh, and I think I opened for how job and there was another big

1:29:56Fleshfield 23 show. And that was also the place that uh I think A23 really broke through because VNV and A-pop were touring and A-OP cancelled that gig. A23 was the head was the supposed to be the opening act and instead A23 became the headlining act that night when Apop VNV had to leave. So, you know, this crowd of a thousand people were just overjoyed to see uh Assembly.

1:30:36That's so cool. It was like just this little converted uh uh seafood restaurant, but it's still just amazing memories of that place and the repeated drive eight hours from Philadelphia out to at that point Cleveland, Ohio.

1:30:52Um so, uh Fleshfield said the fantasy.

1:30:56Yeah, that's it. Yes.

1:30:58And the Taco Bell around the corner at like 3:00 a.m. [laughter]

1:31:03I love the post show hangs. Oh. Oh, and Pugsley uh says, "If if forgive me is on the set list, I will be crying in the club." [laughter]

1:31:15Okay, go. Uh,

1:31:18the answer is yes.

1:31:20Uh, I will bring you tissue box.

1:31:23Oh, [laughter]

1:31:25I apologize in advance.

1:31:29Oh my gosh. I actually I was I was wondering um have you ever done any of your songs acoustically?

1:31:39No, but I've always wanted to. Yeah, I was wondering about that. Yeah,

1:31:45that is something that I've actually always wanted to do. So, you know, I know that we're we're kind of up against a time limit here, but I did pick up a bunch of random weird acoustic instruments during the the hiatus. I don't know if they'll ever be recorded, but uh it it gave me just another way to approach the same things and that is something I've always wanted to do. Maybe that's another someday project or I shouldn't talk about it anymore because once I start doing it then, you

1:32:13won't lose the momentum.

1:32:14Completely understood. So, just tiny little seed planted and we shall see.

1:32:18Okay. Yeah, me. You never know.

1:32:20Um Oh, Fleshfield says, um I remember that they wouldn't play because there was no barrier when Tom played. He said, "I don't care if you want to come up on stage. Just don't knock our stuff over."

1:32:33yeah. Such a That was uh that was one of those like, man, it felt cool to be in the room just for that show.

1:32:40That's incredible.

1:32:41You felt like something big was

1:32:45I love those ma magical intersections. I mean, I usually am like I'm I hear the stories afterwards and I get to see the clips. Like I I've uh never gotten to see Flashfield, but I saw the clips from Dark Forcefest. Yes.

1:32:57Um when Arya was joining joining them on stage and

1:33:00Yeah, that was really cool.

1:33:02Magical moments

1:33:04for sure.

1:33:06Um well friends, um are there any uh if there's any final questions um please drop them in the chat. Um any final wisdoms or or thoughts on your part, Uh I I would love to pontificate on the meaning of life, the universe and everything. Um which is 42 by the way in case anybody is wondering. [laughter]

1:33:34Yes indeed. but I think trying to put up this air of trying to be witty and charming for an hour and a half probably about at my limit. Uh, I'm just I'm so incredibly grateful uh not only to you for having this this podcast and having me on, but just the fact that I could pick it up after 14 years or 12 years or whatever it was and keep going and have people welcome me back, that was

1:34:08that was uh unexpected uh and really kind of fulfilled me in a way that I know I'd been I've been lacking for lack of a better way of putting it.

1:34:21I I think that that's probably um like part of your power is the lack of expectation. I think that it's just being very present in in your own field of creation.

1:34:37Thank you. That is exceedingly kind way of saying it. Um, we're getting some loves in the chat. Uh, Fleshfield says, "I can't wait to see you, brother." [laughter]

1:34:50You, too. In fact, I I do want to maybe call out something that that Ian said uh two weeks ago that kind of stuck with me and that was that, you know, we are a lot of us, we're all like in a very different season of our lives. And you know, I like to think of them as like chapters of I was doing this at this time, then that chapter closed and I'm on to this chapter. And I am trying to be a lot more intentional about the relationships that I have and with the friends that I keep and the ones I want to spend and invest time in. And he was

1:35:23saying like, "Yeah, we don't go to a carrot's birthdays or get invited to each other to each other's weddings and things like that." Like, I want to change that, you know? I I do want to be a bigger part of my my friends lives, especially the ones that have been there for the longest time, you know, like I every time I go to California and I'm somewhere at least within a 2-hour drive of Los Angeles, like I have to see Clint. It's just,

1:35:48you know, he's [clears throat] it just makes me feel good to just go get dinner with him and, you know, talk and and connect. And it's the same thing with Ian and uh uh I want to do more of that. So that uh I'm looking forward to June immensely.

1:36:06Awesome. Awesome. Well um thank you all so much again um for for joining us um for your wonderful um questions and um uh thank you Charles uh again for your time. I really really appreciate it.

1:36:22No, thank you. Thank you. I'm I'm totally blown away that you did this.

1:36:27Oh my gosh. No, I was like I've been so excited and really enjoying my deep dive into Lost Signal. So, um yeah. Yeah, you you you have very much touched my heart um with your beautiful music. So,

1:36:41thank you.

1:36:42Yeah. Well, many loves everybody. Um next week we get to speak with Tom Sheer from Assemblage 23. Um I love that there's a full circle going on here. I think we might need to figure out like a way to do a little round table with um you Ian and um

1:36:59Tom that would be so fun. That would be just amazing.

1:37:05Okay, I'm just planting that seed now. So, [laughter]

1:37:10Yes. Yes. Well, best of luck to your show. Um I can't wait to hear all about it and see hopefully get to see some footage. Um

1:37:18we'll make sure of it.

1:37:20Awesome. Well, everyone have a wonderful rest of your Sunday and week.