Christian Petke, in full

0:00Hi, friends. I am Tash. This is Unwritten Rules of the Road. We are joined today by the amazing Christian Petke, Founder of the label COP International, home of incredible artists, and you guys have been around now for 35 years. Christian, thank you for joining us, and thank you for everything you have done in the music community. Hi, guys. Thank you very much for the candid introduction. Yeah. Sometimes it kills me, like, wow, 35 years. But it's an amazing, you know, sticking around that long is pretty cool, without fairness. It's an accomplishment, especially in the music world. Yes. I wanted to ask you, actually, so I was reading and watching other interviews, and you were talking about how your first band was Diatribe, and it was a handshake deal.

1:05What was going through your mind, like, when you first approached them, and you thought, like, okay, let's start this label? Like, did you have any idea what you were getting into? It's funny, I've been thinking about this, because sometimes, you know, I mean, that person that was, what, 25 at the time, is so far away, so I have a hard time relating to this guy. And obviously, brass balls. Well, what happened is this, I was in the band, and we were touring with Flipper, we did a European tour, we put out a 12-inch, so I had a rough idea, you know, a little bit at least, how the music industry works.

1:47And it was something that I was really into. And I was traveling with a friend, and that was a time when Frankfurt, the whole electronic music thing, was kind of blowing up, and he was on that end. And so, you know, we were talking about that, and what was really nice at the time, there were a lot of labels popping up, because we finally had permission to do that, so to speak. And so, you know, it was kind of brewing in the back of my mind. I knew I wanted to do something with music that was beyond just being a singer. I came to San Francisco, and I picked up a Bay Area music magazine that I found not too long ago, and Consolidated was on the cover.

2:23Diatribe, Brothers was inside, and it was a bunch of clubs, and it was actually about showcases, you know, Diatribe's playing at the horses. It's like, ah, you know, it looks cool, sounds interesting, I'm going to check that out. And I remember walking into the club, the club was packed, and watching this band, and it was just like one of those moments where, in hindsight, your life changes. And this is crazy, right, because music has that power. They weren't just everything that I never knew I wanted to be associated with. They were heavy. I came from punk. I liked electronic music, but I was not really that sure.

3:03This was this beautiful combination. Prod was going wild, and I'd just never seen anything like that. And then this is the part where I'm kidding, I'm just like, how the fuck did you do that? And I was just like, okay, this is amazing. I need to work with these people. This is going to be my first band. I walked backstage, and they probably thought, but who the fuck is this guy? And I'm like, okay, guys, if I find the solution, which I knew was important, I will be my first band, if you doubt. And, you know, they had nothing better to do, so they're like, sure.

3:34And so we recorded the first EP, and I went back to Germany with the EP shop. They found the solution, and that was really the beginning of the day. And I've been thinking a lot about this lately, because it was such a, you know, sometimes you walk into something in life, and you just don't expect it to change. Like, this was a real fourth of my life. I could have gone very different directions, and then after that, the rest, as they say, they sold. So, yeah, it was a really special moment, something really magical. Yeah, I'm incredibly grateful. Plus, I'm a German kid from Frankfurt.

4:12I'm in San Francisco, which was very exotic and awesome. And so, yeah, it was just almost like a green book for it. It's amazing, because, like, you were talking about the fact of having these pinnacle moments that really change your life. Because I feel like from everything that I've read and heard about you, like, I love the way you describe the label as a collective. So, it's a community. And so, it just seems like at the very beginning, you were always thinking about creating a community around you. The way I look at myself is like a catalyst. I do have a lot of energy and enthusiasm.

4:53It's funny. It's like, what's my superpower? Superpower is I get excited. But I'm able to really then take that excitement and put it in a real shape. And so, at some point, you know, sometimes we need a little time to step back and look at this whole construct of the label. And I realized, oh my God, there's so many people, so many moving parts. And yes, I'm kind of central and I'm important, but by no stretch of the imagination, I have the most important. It's really the sum of all parts. And that is something that's, again, is real fun. One of my dreams that hasn't materialized so far as buying a factory, opening a bunch of rehearsal spaces, getting a studio in there, getting a performance space, and maybe some, you know, coffee or like a small restaurant or something like that, and creating community.

5:51And I guess this comes from really paying back something that I was given. My first band, obviously, started in my living room. My friends, actually, my friends are old. And I went to my living room. And in Germany, we have this thing where the cities have something called youth houses. And what that is, it's usually a house, a space, maybe a couple of social workers attached to it. And that's where the kids hang out, which is actually really clever because people love the students and out of trouble for the most part. And they had four reversal spaces. And I was fortunate enough to get into one with my band.

6:30And two bands per reversal space. The theme was two shows. Think about that. How cool is that? And so then a couple of things happened. The first thing is within a couple of months, we had a brand new band. There were all these jam sessions nonstop. Because, you know, you go to a rehearsal space, everybody's late. So you go up to the other guys and kind of jam. And so then you have a focal point where you actually need to perform. And so for me, that was really, it was like an incubator, like a tech, you know, and it was for art. They had a printing press.

7:04You can pick a T-shirt. You can do that with a slide. I mean, it's a dream come true. So, yeah, in a sense, I always wanted to have that physical manifestation of that. But now I have a virtual version, which is fun. I love that idea, by the way. I would love to see that happen. Yeah, unfortunately, real estate in the Bay Area. I mean, at this point, it's a little out of reach. And, yeah, that's just the way it is. It's understandable. No, it's because, you know, the sum is greater than the parts. There's really truth to that. And when you put creative people together, magic happens to inspire each other, you know.

7:43And, again, you don't know where it leads to. Out of this incubator came so many cool people, really cool viewers. Sorry, my cat is trying to get my attention. He's trying to create. Hey, I'm back. Anyway, I'm sorry. Max. Oh, hello, Max. Oh, Max is like, okay, I'm going to climb everywhere. So if this stops very suddenly, I'm going to be sorry. Let me just move for office. Oh, it's all right. Yes, I understand who's really in charge. Yeah, no, I do really believe in the idea of the sum of the parts being greater than the whole. That's how, like, really great art and expressions come to be.

8:33Yeah, it's really cool to see that, you know, you have, like, the collective that participates in the remixes and just, it's a huge body of work on COP International. It's a really fun thing because you have all this talent stacked on top of each other, you know, and I mean, so, you know, sometimes these things kind of have to happen organically. It's just important. But, you know, at the same time, again, I look at myself as providing a hub, you know, and giving people the opportunity to do something more good. I think, you know, like you were saying, sometimes it takes a catalyst or an impetus, you know,

9:14somebody that does get the hub or the ball rolling where people are like, oh, this is a place where I can safely come in and create and find other people that are like-minded kindred spirits, you know, to create with, so. It's amazing, and I want to encourage anyone who thinks about this. Another great example is, this is a relatively small city, and most places, most cities, really have like one or two people that are the enemy of it, and everybody kind of, you know, there's hearts and all of that, but in the end, if you remove these people, the place, the city, the city guys, and I have a ton of respect for whom I want to do this.

9:58And I like really, you know, pushing the envelope, because a lot of times it's not necessarily the most, you know, people are not always grateful, to put it mildly, and you really have to have that energy or desire to do something like that, and I have a ton of respect for that, because, you know, I see myself in that, and I know, I think we really live in interesting times, and think that up, we're thinking about a lot of ladies' money, how terrible it actually is as a concept, and obviously we want to trade, not hides and cows, but the idea that so many things cannot be done, because there is a shortage of money, while the reality is going to be

10:41done, but we have this very strange concept that prevents us from doing a little bit of things, so that, again, going back to this youth house, you know, the city paid for that, and it was a, you know, it was an investment that the city people put into their youth to help hold it down. Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, it's funny, I've been having similar conversations and thinking in a similar way. I had Ali from Mechanismus on last month, and he was talking about having to do fundraisers in order to put Mechanismus together, and I mean, I think it's amazing the fact that, you know, it's like, obviously so much hard work that goes into it, you know, insane amount

11:25of work, but the fact that it's like he has this vision, right? Like yourself, like other people, like you have this vision where you're like, okay, I want to put together these bands, and I want to have this festival, and I'm going to do what it takes to make it happen, and he does, you know, yeah. Like, he's totally amazing. Because they, again, use the engine. I love to see his whole organization, because you can tell a little bit about the person that's linked it by the One of the other people that's around me. And his crew is fantastic. I mean, every time I'm up there, I'm just like, oh my God, this is so good. And I stay on his houseboat. So the guy comes home at like, I don't know, four or five in the morning, he heads up at seven. He does this for like five days straight. You know, he puts a lot of his effort. He works so hard on this.

12:26So yeah, he's a classic example of people that absolutely are just going to make something. It's very easy to sit on the sideline and go, that's terrible. Or my God, we should be really, something should be happening. Well, right. And what are you contributing? Yeah, no, I think it's, it's amazing. Because like, gosh, it's, it's hard enough as it is to put on a single show, let alone a festival. So, but yeah, and, you know, I'm the person. That does all the booking for our tours. So I have a deep appreciation for the promoters in each city. You know, they're all underground promoters that it's a labor of love, absolutely a labor of love. Yeah. But it makes the community possible. And so we get to have this, like, honestly, very healthy underground live music scene.

13:17No, I agree. And I mean, honestly, I think it's also harder than what it was in some ways. And there's so many distractions. So easy to, you know, I'm busy. And it used to be like that. But when the band would come from town, I would love, I love to go smaller. But it's like, there's an incredible amount of gratitude. Because you show up and it's kind of rare. It's just a special thing. And then you have the opportunity that you know, to play for an audience with an audience. Because again, you know, I mean, stretching it a little bit, but it's almost like performance art. You know, you are on stage, but this exchange of energy that happens is just absolutely, absolutely.

13:59Yeah. Max. Yeah. Sorry. Oh, hello, Max. Oh, what a cutie. He's my stray. I found him about two years ago. And we have a very, very special girl. He's a very good guy. So he's very, he needs affection. And it's really funny because every time I'm busy, he's like, no. He knows. He knows. He's like, you're not allowed. He's my emotional support out of it. Oh, yeah, I think, though, I wanted to ask you, because speaking of money, and we know in music, a lot of times there isn't a lot of it. As an artist, like, I think, like, you know, we create it because we need to. It's an expression that needs to happen.

14:54But, like, what do you think are avenues for artists to make money? It's a very interesting one, because I think, I mean, first of all, it's a question of, you'll need to decide. I have these conversations, but especially smaller, and when they're younger, they have, like, Strad or, you know, these wonderful writers. But first of all, I think you have to be realistic. What's the genre you're working with? If you decide that you want to be a graphic and a serial artist, the reality is that you don't have to approach anything. The reality is that if you're incredibly, like, you might have a short window where you can go back.

15:39And if you're, like, insane, you're, like, you might have a killer. I did this for PIX. I went to Spotify and dialed in between the top-downs in my blog, and I looked at the mantras, and it's pretty funny. I mean, just being said, a lot of them are a little older. But the reality is that you just have to accept, if you work in our genre, money should never be the main driver. I think what you said is really true, which is we have to play, and our position needs us somewhere. And so, again, you have to make, see, this is one where I see a lot of frustration, especially when we are elsewhere.

16:21So, well, I'm doing this. Why am I not going to recognize the reality as well? Maybe option A, because your art does not speak to a lot of it. That doesn't mean it's bad. It just means it's not nature. You have to accept that. Or if you don't accept that, you can say, okay, I want to be a successful artist. Well, who is successful? And then kind of model yourself, you know, to the degree after that. I think some of the biggest frustrations that I see is when that doesn't materialize, in a sense, you do what you want to do, which I really feel is an incredible reward, as far as, and you're not making a million bucks.

17:06And I can tell you from a labeled perspective, when I started, I looked at the 80s. In the 80s, independent record labels became a thing. Before that, it was all the big bands, right? So, you show up at John Peel, John Fryer, the Music Stories, this is my boy, on Friday for the take, and on Monday, you saw 150,000 albums. I mean, that's just staggering. And that was not unheard of. But the reality was also the amount of bands that got to this level, where I love small. The Cassandra Complex, beautiful, you know, they put out a demo, they gave it to a distributor, and, well, they were selling me, but they showed up for their first show in Hamburg.

17:47And they tried to get to the venue, and the whole street was packed with people. And they're like, ah, shit, it was playing. Wow, this is amazing. And then they realized, they are playing. It was for that. And they're like, whoa, exactly. So, you know, I feel like in some ways, not everything was gold, but it was a lot easier. So I started in the 90s. We had an ironclad board. You can always move a thousand units. Physical conference, obviously, nothing else. And, like, literally anything would move a thousand units. I had a technical intervention for a while. It was ridiculous. And then that changed.

18:25And if you move a thousand units, you'd be like, holy shit, that's amazing, you know? And, well, through the map, how much money do you make with that? Maybe I have four bandmates in this year. So, I think if you want to have a steady source of income, And, of course, this is a little bit of a catch from the tour. You need to play. You need to tour. You need to connect with fans. I think the whole idea that social media is a shortcut is a trap. I also think it's soul-sucking and destroying. I don't think it's completely useless, but I also think I've seen people burn out so hard.

19:02And I think for a while there's this mess you can sit in the corner and create something. You know, there's always – my grandfather used to be a heavy smoker and he lived to 98. It's not true, but, you know, we all heard that. And, yeah, maybe, but 99% of the rest of the people died of lung cancer before. So there's always somebody who gets successful in a certain way and good for them. But it's not necessarily true for the masses. So I think, honestly, the first thing is set your expectations. What is it that I want? And I look at it as a business, which is also kind of hard.

19:41But, you know, okay, so what's my business plan? What do I want to do? Where do I want to be in three years? I think the three-year cycle is incredibly dynamic. But I think three years is a good market. Year one, what have we done? Well, we have recorded the demo. We played some of the local shows. We talked to the DJs. We're kind of, you know, we conquered our hometown. I always tell people, if you don't conquer your hometown, again, there are exceptions. But you have no business conquering the world, you know. And then you take it from there. You play the next year.

20:13Okay, I want to play outside of my town. That's a hard one because people don't know you. So you need to build connections. You know, you need to talk with me. Maybe you can travel a little bit. Do some research, you know, put the name out. And then we need to play. And I think, I really, I'm okay, I'm not 20. But I truly believe that Diatribe for me was an absolutely magical experience. I have this a couple of times. I walk into a room. I see a band and everything changes. Stabbing Westward is a band like that. I saw them at the DNA in front of 15 people.

20:47And I wish this was the first tour. I would probably do that. And, oh my God, this is the best thing ever. I swear, man. And so to find that passion, you know, I deal with it. I try to build fans for being available for fans for the dream. And I see so much passion, energy, joy, which is another thing. It's a position to have the ability to touch people's lives. Yes, that doesn't pay the bills, but it's pretty fucking awesome. So anyway, make a business plan. Try to stick with it. Make goals. Stick to those goals. Be serious about it. Don't just expect, hey, I did a song and my mom likes it.

21:30And I'm like, what? You know, I mean, that's not how this works. And we talked a little bit before we started here. Working hard on your craft is good. There's a lot of other people that are doing the same, not efficient, but also being willing to give them the powers, well-knowing that the rewards might not. And I see that as a role to happiness. And then all the scenes that happen outside, they've built up, built up, built up, built new mentors, good things will happen to those who speak to their guns. One really beautiful example is no doubt for a while, but they were an overnight success when

22:20their one record dropped with them. But the reality is they were touring for 10 years, up and down the coast, down the west, east coast, west coast. They were 10 years, but nobody talked about it. It was an overnight success because nobody knew them and all of a sudden they grew up. But it wasn't awesome. It was they had put together an amazing stage show. They had really worked out the music. They had to craft the film. So, you know, I think try to be realistic. Try to really enjoy the process and be nice to people. That's another good one. You know, I mean, you can have a stage persona that's all over the place.

22:59That's fine. But behind the scenes, be nice, be humble, be appreciative. Think about the other person. Think about what can you do. I forgot who it was. I might have been Stephen, actually, at Stoneburner. You know, how do you get out of the festival? Well, go to the festival. Talk to the people that, you know, put up the festival. Maybe promote the festival without being prompted, you know. Just be a little proactive, put yourself in the other person's shoes and build the experience. And, yeah, none of that has to do with the music, technically. But I think all of these things are very important. I really like the perspective of thinking of other people, because that seems very foundational, you know.

23:46It's radical these days. Yeah. I mean, we live in an environment that has exactly one focus in its eye. And so the whole idea, I get immense amounts of pleasure. And it's very rewarding, you know, being able to get something to a fan a little earlier, seeing their posts where they go to CD and they're going to come here to hear. I mean, you know, in the end, that's more important than anything else. I think, you know, success, I think we're talking about success is something that is measured in very different units, so to speak. And I think, for me, success has been to be able to do this for the whole time.

24:39And for the record, you know, I do a lot of other things in my life, because I'm very creative and very curious. And honestly, that was a labor of love. But I would definitely think it's successful. You know, I had a lot of fun with it. I would sometimes pull my hair out. But that's all part of the process, you know. But I think that we have put out some records that I absolutely love over our time. It's amazing. Very proud. I was wondering when you were talking about No Doubt, have you had certain blossoming moments with some of your artists where you're like, wow, they've blossomed in this way and you're seeing this evolution?

25:24Well, I mean, I had a couple of them. I can't give you a good one. I have them shared. And this is actually a beautiful example of how this worked out. So, we used to have about 400 people on our distribution list and mailing list and the rest of the details. We thought, especially in the 90s, a lot of cultural workstation programs. And one of those guys ended up working for a game company. And he got it there a while back. Really, really loved it. And all of a sudden, you know, when you're at a cultural organization, you're 20. But then you get a real job and then you get responsibility.

26:07So, that happens 10 years later. And so, she got on Vampire's Bloodlines because of that. She reached out to me and said, hey, I would love to put this record or this track on this game. And I'm like, sure. That sounds fantastic. And she sold 10-fold afterwards. And what was really cool was what we all kind of hoped. Because I think her music is really unique. And a lot of people that were not hardcore and what sort of rock kids really got the music to the game. And all of a sudden, you're getting orders from all over the globe. You know, people are just like so excited.

26:47And she's kind of still bribing that. So, that's one little thing. And, you know, I could totally see that shade of events. And none of it was organized or planned, you know. And right now, I'm working on a couple of things that are kind of in a similar vein. And so, sometimes, you know, it's a combination. It's a bit of luck. But it's also, you work very hard to make that luck happen. I think that can change in trajectory. Sometimes, I forgot the plan. We're a very dressed band. We played a show. We had a violinist. I think we were actually kind of got the...

27:24They played one show in the U.S. I knew the next day, everybody was talking about it. Oh, my God. Best fucking thing ever. Which is, again, what we talked about from Alice. The idea that, okay, so you play live. Seriously, guys. A keyboarder gets this. And a vocalist is not a show. That is not a show. I cannot stress this enough. This tells me you have put zero effort and thought into this. So if I can give fans one piece of advice, be honest. Look at the best bands that you love. Suicide Command. Fuck me. So cool. Same kind of concept, but there's four bodies on stage.

28:12They're all rocking out. There's this amazing background. And, of course, you have this front man that, you know, is completely insane. And it's wonderful. And it's exciting. And then I see very similar music. It's just like, oh, my God, I'm shooting the silver ball. Sorry. But, no, it really bugs me because I know how much energy and time goes into music. And I have so many bands and I'm like, well, then you already took away one major avenue of success. And I think when you have the opportunity to play live, for crying out loud, spend some time, get rid of a stage show, put some props together.

28:55I mean, you can put some, I think it's so easy. And it is, I'm so chill now. We used to travel with Deathline, I was like, oh, my God, that light shit was so heavy. We had some of the first laser systems, these things were like a tongue. And you carry that at four o'clock in the morning, you know, no fun. But I was adamant about it because I was like, fuck it. So to give you an idea, I'm just going to lay this out. We've got to go to this club. And this is your club. And you know, it's lovely to slide out, but we have 50 bands there and the lights are always the same.

29:23Sound system is always the same. Stage is always the same. And all of a sudden, there's this one band and the house lights are off and they bring a little bit of effort. And maybe they even take off their jacket mid-performance. It's their show. You're a performer. You're not an official. So as you can tell, I feel very adamant. And you go like, damn, that was so cool. I saw the lords of the new church in a small little trunk. And St. Bader ended up in the light hanging upside down. I would not recommend that. The stage people were losing their shit. With the mic, singing.

30:02And the place was actually mesmerized. You know, because here's, you know, that's another thing. When you're on stage, you have the opportunity to be somebody else. You can completely and should completely reinvent yourself. You can be Billy Bob all day long, but then you are somebody, you know, and people want to see a rock star, so to speak. You know, they don't want to see some guy that's kind of like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing there. Anyway, so if you put some energy into that, you will go places. Yeah. Cyclone 9. I know Marshall for a very long time. And I remember he was so laser focused.

30:43I'm going to give you this example. I always had a ton of respect for heroin patents. Because nothing else matters. The only thing that matters in the field is to get enough money to make it to the way. And they do. Whatever it takes, they make it happen. That's the kind of energy for laser focus that you should have if you want to be successful. This is, and heroin had that. You know, there's a lot of things that happened afterwards, but that's not the point. And the point is, he wanted to be someone, and he made it happen. And he put the effort in it.

31:19And I really respect that. And again, I see a lot of times people go, like, hey, why is the world not loving me? Well, you know, what are you doing to make it happen? Well, I'll put out the track. I'm like, yeah, you can work a little harder on that. Okay, I have several questions for you, actually. I've spoken to some artists before who really don't like playing live. I mean, I guess there's definitely, like, the artists that, like, only want to be in the studio. So, I guess, like, what, I guess it is absolutely possible to find your success in that realm as well.

32:02Yes. Okay. So, I just run with a record, Technobaker. They barely played live. But they played live with all people. I'm not saying this is the only way. I think it's, strangely enough, it's kind of coming back. Because, again, like I said, there was this. So, Billie Eilish. She creates a track. She uploads it to SoundCloud. By the time she gets to the dance, Uber has a couple of thousand hits. Now, there is a lot more to that. But, what does that mean? It means she wrote a song with her brother that resonates. If you write a song that resonates, it will get traction. Because your friend is going to go, damn, this is amazing.

32:53I have to give this to my friend who's a DJ. If your song doesn't do that, and this is brutal but true, well, shocking surprise, it did not resonate. Just because you create something doesn't mean that it's great. I think this is another thing that's really important. You need to be fairly honest with yourself. It's art. It's your art. It's so personal. One of my hardest conversations is with people talking about that because, fuck, this is almost like a part of myself. But again, here's the thing. If you want to do things like art for art's sake, wonderful. Do continue to do it. But if you want to be successful, you need to ask yourself these questions.

33:36And, you know, here's another thing. The market is absolutely brutal. The market is not nice. The market, either you stream or you don't stream or you sell or you don't sell. So if you don't sell, I mean, as a record company, I'm very much used to the concept of, well, my record was not familiar. Which is a wonderful narrative. Because, you know, a record's brilliant. And all it needed to be put in front of people. Well, the reality is you do have a little bit of a tier system, obviously. But for the most part, I promote all the records the same way. And some pop, but some don't pop.

34:09And if you talk to anyone in the industry, that's just the way it is. Sometimes we, as record people, love a record. Sometimes I think it's a bit of a curse. Because if I love it, it means it's interesting. It's slightly different. And that was not necessarily successful. But that's a different story. But ask yourself, okay, why is it possible that maybe, you know, people are not just not into it? And that's, you know, and then the next thing is gatekeeping. So record companies used to be the gatekeepers. And this is a made-up number. So let's say in a month, 1990, we had a thousand producers.

34:49I think we're probably close to a million uploads on Spotify. Most of them are AI. AI is quite quick at this point. Well, how do you, you know, how do you stand out there? It's almost impossible. And so, again, it comes down to expectations. So, yes, if you don't want to play live, absolutely cool. Write a lot of songs. Yes, see how it happens. Be good to DJs. Also, be maybe sometimes a little open to criticism. And, I mean, criticism is not, you suck. That's us being an asshole. But, well, you know, maybe your groove could be a little bit more danceable and then I could spin it on the floor.

35:30Right now, it doesn't work. You don't have to accept that, but you should be open to this, you know, and shape your music. And, again, you know, there's always the narrative of an artist that just want to do what I want. And that's absolutely wonderful. But then, please don't attach success to it. It might happen. There are artists that wrote all the rules and they were incredibly successful. Wonderful. I mean, you know, wonderful. Maybe they opened a new avenue. Maybe they had new ideas being created. You know, okay, social media. Hey, I have a thing. Hey, I have another thing. Hey, I have a thing. Well, guess what? We don't like to watch advertisements. So maybe don't do, hey, I have a thing. Maybe do like, okay, I'm working on this really cool baseline. I'm really excited about it. Check it out. This is my gear, blah, blah, blah. Something like that.

36:24Or do some fun video stuff. You know, again, in some ways, the sky is the limit. Right now, you have never more avenues to success. And, you know, my way, by no stretch of the imagination, it's the only way. I watch things blow up on TikTok. You know, I'm just like, dance straight. You know, I also watch a lot of garbage on TikTok. But, you know, so what I'm trying to say is, if you feel like this is not me, don't despair. See if there's alternatives. But also, I think it's really clever to look at bands that are successful. And how do they do it? What did they do? I think that's another thing that's so cool. It used to be kind of this very mysterious thing, how a band got to success. But nowadays, a lot of bands are incredibly open. You know, you can literally look in their feed, see how they do it, and see engagement.

37:22bands, but be careful. Like I said, it can be a trap. And burn out on social media and you can be so frustrated. I post every day and nobody loves me. That's so destroyed. You know, and I have, I have bands that really died. So be cautious. You know, I always, when I tell people about social media, it's like, do some stuff that's fun. You know, maybe talk to people, you know, be approachable. There's a lot of of the phenomena. I saw them. She's a photographer and she animated for pictures and it's absolutely singular work. It's amazing. It blew my mind. Because I've never seen anything about that. Stuff like that, you know? Yeah. So

38:04try to do one thing I would definitely try to avoid is try to be a copywriter. Try to be just like a copywriter or something. Be your own person. And again, be realistic. If you were doing it, you know, the likelihood that you're going to end up in the top the top 10 is very, very slow. Just being said, being in the top 10 is not a guarantee for, you know, a lifelong thing, because the numbers are not obvious. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is just, you know, in watching some of the bands that I really admire. And I think I just, I love that there's a trajectory and a body of work and a history and, you know, yeah.

38:49Stick to your guns. And I want to, I'm looking at a Stabbing Westward album right now. So, every band I work with, I learn from. Stabbing Westward, I'll tell you a story. So, we started working together. They did the Halloween EP, and Steve was mastering it. And there was a whole weekend, and Chris was sending new versions in France. And Steve was like, well, we have this issue. Oh, no worries. Let me fix this. And Chris was fighting till the very end for the best possible product. And this is a thing that I see. There's a reason why these guys are so successful. Because, A, they have the goods. They're amazing.

39:37But also, they really care. They micromanage. This is their art. It means so much to them. And so I have a ton of respect for people and artists that really, I mean, they work so hard. And it's impressive. It's utterly impressive. Their skill sets that are required over time. Amazing. I want to talk about, weird quick, one other thing. Okay, if you don't like playing live, let's do that. But if you play live, you will notice what works. The audience gives you feedback. That's the song where people go, kind of, this stuff. I was touring with Lisa Blanco. It was totally awesome. So we were all crew attend people. And after every show, next day in the band, you know, there's hours for them.

40:33And then they started talking. We all started talking. Okay, this worked really well. This was shit, man. We need to switch the song more. This song hits so hard right there. And then we have them in the palm of our hands. And it, again, you know, Chuck plays with Alice Cooper. So he knows a thing or two about shows. And it was, again, I got a lesson in effort. These guys were not resting on their laurels or just like, yeah, we're awesome. They were like, no. Okay, how every day you fight for that last lunch. There's a certain degree of perfectionism. I think I have that disease too. I try to live with it. But yeah, you know, constantly question yourself, not in a destructive way, but in how can we make this better. And an audience will always tell you, this is the coolest thing, you know, and listen to them. I go like, well, they kind of did that. This is something that we can lean into.

41:28Yeah. Yeah. And if you can, maybe double down, you know, and let's see how it works. Because the next day you have just the coolest thing, you have this lab. The same is true for social media. Figure out a campaign, figure out your articles, the things you want to talk about. And okay, do I get any engagement? Oh, shit. Okay, I guess that's, I'm going to try it a couple of times. Nope, not working. And how about that? Oh, look at that. People seem to be into this idea. Okay, so social media is a beautiful lab if you treat it right. Because tomorrow is another day. And tomorrow, everything that happened today is forgot. So, you know, you can consistently play. Yeah. You know, and again, don't be so focused on yourself. Just think about what one of the, I mean, I do marketing. What's in it for the customer? What's in it for them? That's what they mean for me. I know what's in it for me. But how can I get people excited?

42:26And I think flipping that mindset a little bit moving from I really want to be successful to okay, you know, I'm going to have fun. Having fun with them. Sounds super pedestrian. It's incredibly infectious. So there's a lot of avenues. But I think the most important part is define goals, try to achieve them and make define goals that are realistic in a timeframe as well. in a timeframe as well. And board yourself, you know, and be there, some level of steadiness, discipline. It's a hard one for musicians, I know that. I know that several of your artists are actually touring. I know Stabbing Westward had a really large tour, as well as Cassandra Complex, Stoneburner, Stephen's always touring.

43:22Yeah, I mean, talking about hardworking artists that are out there. Okay, Stephen, beautiful example. Oh, God. So nice. First of all, he brings a lot of passion. This is his life. I have so much respect. Because he literally lives off his art, and this is not. But, song one, he comes in an outfit. Song two, outfit changes. Song three, he steps on a box with some pinky lights. Song four, and he brings out his crazy, weird ass guitar that he put together. So what I'm trying to say is, like, small changes that break up the static, the static picture. And, I mean, there are two guys on stage. I mean, there's a lot of energy there. There's a lot of passion there. And, you know, of course, I love the band.

44:18These bands, especially my bands, are hypercritical, which is one of the reasons why I personally have a hard time enjoying live shows. Because I really, my brain is, like, in hyper mode. But I'm, like, damn, this is great. We live in really interesting times. That shit alone, write a lot of really good songs. I mean, there is a lot to choose from. Our world is changing and dramatically. We live in a science fiction world. Our rights are a massive attack, left and right. I mean, it's just insane. I've never seen anything like that. There should be a lot of, I mean, I feel like, you know, musicians or artists out of the community should talk about the things that have a product.

45:12There's always, you know, there's a debate to art being political. I've seen art as political inherently, if you like it or not, because art reflects on our lives, draws from it. And so, anyway, so, yeah, looking at Stephen, just like, and, you know, same thing, there's so much effort, so much work, you know, people on there, so 18-hour drives, and stuff like that, you know, this is really, really hard work. But I think, honestly, that's also why a lot of people aren't doing difficult work, which is a lot of work, you know. Yeah. And, well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, someone recently, I was, you know, reading someone talking about being in a band and it not being for the faint of heart.

46:07It's not. It's not. It's not. I think, you know, it's a little bit, it's really funny. I mean, a lot of people, chefs became rock and roll bands. And even chefs is one of the coolest ones on the planet. They're such a pirate, such a badass. It's so cool. Well, my wife actually teaches a culinary world. I have a lot of friends in the world. The closest thing I can compare a restaurant shift with is actually being on the road. You have to prep. Once the door is open, nobody says, fuck, we're going sideways because you have to perform. Your show must go on. And then it's 12 o'clock, 1 o'clock, and you hang out completely destroyed.

46:48I just have a couple of drinks with your follow warriors. You know, there's nothing glamorous about it at all. So I think there's a sense of music. Oh, my God, it's so nice. Because we look at all the top bands of the support system. I mean, you know, Taylor Swift holds billions of dollars. Sure, I think, but you're not playing as well. So, yes, be prepared for that. And I think that can be a real damper, you know, because it's totally awesome to sit there, create music, have fun with the crew. And then you go, oh, my God, some of the... Okay, yes, I am that old.

47:28I used to run around in Flyer. And then 100 yards behind me is another guy with Flyer that goes, shh, don't remind. I'd be going lampposts, you know, that kind of shit. And then I hear people bitch about social media. Oh, my God, this is so terrible. You sit behind your keyboard and you say, hey, we're playing a show. But, hey, potentially you can reach a lot of people about it. And in all fairness, it's kind of fun to run around with and do some crazy shit to promote your shows. I still see flyers. I live in Los Angeles, but I still see flyers on poles and everything, and I love it.

48:06There's something really, especially when you touch the pole and you realize there's this much flyer material underneath this. You know, it would be an archaeological experience, you know, to just kind of dig through the lairs. And there's something really humbling about it and exciting. I used to run a club and, oh my God, dude, it was in the theater. Tuesday, we ripped the theater apart. The club looked different every time. Wednesday was the club. Bands and show performance art. Thursday, we have to put the theater back together. And for the rest of the time, we were flyers. And that was a couple of days of my life.

48:43That's why I have a lot of respect for book promoters, because I know how hard this is. But at the same time, now looking back, I'm like, damn, like, that was crazy. That was amazing. And having the ability to just express yourself, to play. And then, you know, I look at the two of us. There are so many things that I've tried in the time. But with this, if you're creative, oh my God, there's so much you can do. And there was always money, it was the entry level for so many things. And it's really not anymore. Now it's just creativity and work that way.

49:17Yeah. Yeah. And like you were saying, like, you know, if your work happens to resonate with people, then it's wonderful. But that's not a guarantee. That's not a given. No. And you know what? Okay. Very personal. My own art. I'm very involved in feeling about that. Obviously, this book and the last record we did, did okay. Didn't look great for my expectations. But I love every song. I'm really happy that we did it. I'm really happy that we worked with John. I'm really happy that this is a capture and time of my life. And so everything after that was life, you know. But I already achieved my goal because I don't create a art for anybody else than me in the end.

50:18Maybe with my crew, right, together. That's another really fun thing. But that is incredibly satisfying. And it's incredibly awesome. You're able to, like you said this, it's so true. You're a true artist. It's not a choice. You have to do it so well and try to do something that you have thought of, that you haven't. I mean, I always critique my work to the end degree, which is, you know, heavy progress if it's not self-refeiting. But creating something that you've needed now, that you've bought of, that you feel like, you know, I was like, I felt like with my last record, there was a couple of steps up.

51:02I was able to go to production that I always wanted to do. I felt like the songwriting was better. I felt like the work from the repeat, that I worked with which is absolutely fantastic. And so for me, that's a total success. I'm super proud of that. I'm super happy about it. And again, this is part of the realism. Because I, when we started the whole process, first I had to do it. And then I was like, okay, why am I doing it? Well, honestly, I'm doing this for myself. And then, you know, I do have people come to me and say, oh my God, you used to be touched and changed.

51:37But I'm kidding, this is amazing, you know. So in some ways, then temper my expectations and be realistic. I hope for the best, but above, you know, with an open heart, you know, and enjoy the process. Enjoy the people that you have a privilege to work with. And if you have any money left, hire the best producer you can basically afford. Not just because your product or your music will sound so much better, but because you learn so much from the person. There's some really great people out there that really afford to sound. And every time you work with one of those, like I said, by the time a band, you know, starting Westward, we talk song, we talk art.

52:24I have this incredible opportunity to work with some mind-blowing good people. And a lot of times, I try to be as quiet as possible because they know what they're doing. And for me, this is a beautiful learning experience. I can contribute to my life, you know, and that's all good. But listening to people, talking to people, it's another scene, you make some bands, but you can reach them all day. There's a very bad possibility that you can actually, that was impossible. You could never talk to the bands, really, unless you saw them go to the show and they were really up for it. Now you can probably, in the nature of the conversation, you can hire people that have faith in the world, you know, and they love what they're doing.

53:14You know, holding their breath with both ears sometimes. Or how cool is that? Yeah, it is amazing that people are so much more accessible. Yeah, it is. It is. I think that's something that we're seeing a lot more of. And I feel like the connection becomes that much deeper. Yes, well, that's another, you know, the round with the live or some kind of connection. That's what I feel like, Julius. When we meet in real life, and we sit down for half an hour, that is a real connection. If I watch your show and go, damn, this is awesome. Like I told you, it's been a while since I saw you, and I still remember it.

54:00Yeah, that was fun. Boom, I really enjoyed that. But, you know, that's real. That sticks with me. If I see something on social media, it's kind of a flash, and then I'm a one, and I'm a one, and I'm a one. It's very difficult to kind of get, you know, sticky power, so to speak. And having social media, I think we like to interact. So that's a very, very powerful thing. And here's another thing. Ask people for advice. You know, they're older peers. They might answer, and they might have useful things, you know. How cool is that? I mean, for me, a lot of the reasons why I do these interviews is because I'm hoping that I've been doing this for a very long time.

54:47I've seen a lot of things. I've tried a lot of things. And I'm trying to, you know, encourage people and also maybe share a couple of things that I learned about. It's very appreciated. I know it's, you know, it's very daunting, I think, when you're first starting out, where you're like, okay, how do I even start? And, you know. Just being said, I think one of the coolest things when you start with me now is that you are fearless. And you honestly, like, would I start the labor knowing everything I know today? I'm not sure. Because, you know, there's easier ways to live. I would like to think yes, but the truth is I'm not 100% sure.

55:31So one of the coolest things is when you actually don't know all the things that go sideways, you're just like, fuck it, I'm going to do this. I love that energy. When I talk to 20-year-olds and they have this, or teenagers, man, you can totally do this, you know. I think it's great. And the last thing I want to do, just to be clear, I'm being realistic. That's part of my job. I don't want to discourage anyone from doing anything like that. On the contrary, I think it's some of the most fulfilling things you can do with your life. It's amazing. It's great for yourself.

56:03If you're really lucky, it's great for other people, too. Art, art is gift from the gods. I don't know. You know, we are the only species that we know of that create art. There seems to be a part of us that want to do art. I do feel that a lot of people got streamlined out of art, meaning you have to do the 9 to 5. You have to have the family and kids. Don't do any of this crazy shit, you know. And at the same time, you go to someone's house, you will find some form of art. You know, there's a part of us that really truly enjoys that.

56:43And it's a magical thing. You know, it's absolutely fantastic. Like when I had the privilege of travel the world and see all these human tribes expressing themselves in different ways, working with their environment, and we're just there and wow. I would have never thought about this. It's mind-blowing than walking away with the inspiration, you know. You will do something with yourself. It's absolutely fantastic. So yes, you know, do art. Be careful when you consider a career. It's not possible, but it's hard. By the way, we were talking about flyering, and Clint Carney from System Syn is in the chat, says, we'll have some flyers from a show I played with Christian in the early 2000s in San Diego.

57:36I think we played at least two shows together back then. I love that. And I still remember that because we packed up when we drove home. So you will appreciate that. So we booked this tour. I think it was LA, San Diego, Houston, Phoenix, San Antonio, another place in Texas, maybe Austin, and then Salt Lake City, and then back home. And then a week, and we played Arizona the year before, and it went great. And a week before the tour, I was talking to the guy, I was trying to talk to the guy from Arizona, and he's not reaching. So I called the club, and we're like, well, we loved you guys, but we have another band booked.

58:17So I'm like, you fucking kidding me. So we did LA, we did San Diego, we drove home, and then we drove to Texas. And that almost broke me, man. That was, I think it was 25 hours or some shit like that. Oh, man. That promoter is really lucky. I never met him first. I would have killed him. But I remember the show, man. So thanks for reaching out. I really appreciate that. Oh, man. That was fun. I remember there was this one moment when I passed out of the van, and I opened my eye, and we're in the middle of fog, and our driver, which is on his seventh red bull,

58:55is, like, glued to a truck, which is the thing you really don't want to do. And I'm like, okay, I have two options. I can yell at him and drive myself, which I'm not capable of right now. Or I can pray and go back to sleep. So I did the latter, and we somehow managed to do this. He redeemed himself because we were in Texas. I mean, I almost hit a cow, and he hit the brakes just in time. I mean, you know? So this is the fact what I'm trying to say when you're on the road. You're going to have stories for the best of you.

59:25You're going to have connections with people for the rest of your life because you did something together that's absolutely exceptional. Part of my music career, I always think it's an adventure. And somebody really nailed that. When you look at adventures, it's not so awesome, so fun, because you know at the end it's all going to work out. But the adventure itself, Lord of the Rings, is not fun at all. It's a fucking shit show. It's hard work. And that's life on the road. But at the same time, you know, I look at some pictures. I remember stories. You meet people. It's really magic. So if you ever have the opportunity, give it a shot. Even if you like a little tinnit, you know.

1:00:07And I mean, the truth is, if you're lucky in a band, you have a good front person. And then the rest of the person aren't just kind of chill in the back. It's all good, you know. And the way it's on the front. But I can highly recommend it's the best vacation you ever have to. Maybe not relaxing. It's not like anything else, that's for sure. Absolutely. Which is another thing, you know, I just want to throw this out because I've talked to some of the bands, you know, so there's this whole thing of bias. You have a bigger band than as a built-in audience, and you have the opportunity to buy it.

1:00:41Now, buy-in sounds, there's a part of me that's like, ah, I don't know, I'm so full, I don't know, I should do this. Well, the reality is for the buy-in, you get to be a place to stay, you get an audience, you get the opportunity to tag on to something. And then you have the opportunity to actually reach in the audience. They're not there for you. You have to understand now. That means you have to work your ass off to make them go, damn, that was cool. And then, please, for the love of God, you need to go back. Don't, you know, chill out for a few years. That doesn't work.

1:01:12But I think if you can afford it, you know, and I mean, I was in a situation where I worked three jobs beyond the road, you know. And sometimes, if you want it, you have to put in the hours, you know, now that we leave me at once. Yeah. Anyway. How is touring in Europe as opposed to the U.S.? We've never been to Europe ourselves, so. So the one thing that I positively hate about living on the East Coast, touring on the East Coast is almost. It's terrible. Yeah. West Coast. East Coast is already a lot better because two, three hours, you're in a different city.

1:01:54How cool is that? I think if you're lucky, an hour, you're in the next place. It's incredibly cool. Interestingly enough, for our type of music, the infrastructure is a lot better because it is actually no mainstream. B&B Nation, Comet, Mesh, in the top 10 in general charts, charts, real charts, sales charts, which means, you know, you can really, there's an audience for you. There's an infrastructure for you. There are clubs where the technology actually is sparkling, which is a beautiful thing. And the distance, I mean, of course, an American band needs to come over there. So there's a flight, which can be very good. No longer a human is doing this right now.

1:02:40So he went there last year for a couple of shows. People were asking and he was like, fuck it, I'm just going to do it. And he's going to go for one show in October. And we're trying very hard to get him piggyback because I think he's absolutely fantastic. And he's at a point in his life where he wants this and he's capable of doing it. And I think that's another thing you have to be pretty realistic about. It's wonderful to type three, but she wants this right. So I'm like, okay, dude, let's make it happen. It's not going to happen overnight, but I have so much appreciation for him going,

1:03:14you know what, fuck it, I'm just going to take this risk. Because that's another thing. Sometimes in life, you have to jump and you have to improve what's on the bottom. If there's a nice mattress or a pillow or fucking thorns, right? But if you never jump, people never know. So he's doing that. We're really trying to get him on the wave traffic traffic. And we're really trying to get him on the piggyback traffic. Because I know that Kevin Robbins is a great performer. He has the conviction. He has energy. And that's really, really exciting. It's not a busy thing. It takes time. It helps if you have a little bit of press.

1:03:55You know, there are still food media, Germany. And yes, there's pay-to-play. You know, you place the ad, you get your stuff. But at least you kind of, you know, prepare the groundwork. In Germany, there's a thing about the AC, German alternative charts, which I have conversations with artists where they're like, when is this even real? The reality is they're sending movies up to 300 pictures. Well, you can just like it. Go places. If you don't like it well, then you don't go places. But sometimes there's a certain level of persistence. You know, when I look at promotion, I always look at the brick wall. It's really rare that there's a one event thing.

1:04:35It can happen when it's rare, but it's little bricks. You know, you did this, you did that, you did that. And what you're really doing is you're showing people, I'm putting my energy in this. I really want that. And I'm good at this. And I say, yeah, you stick to your guns. And I've seen it a couple of times and it's incredibly, it's fun. It's a big job. But I honestly think once you're there, it's a lot nicer than most socialists. Yeah. The other market that I would definitely do the southern part of Mexico is the first reason is that, you know, anything I've seen from the fans there, they are like,

1:05:21let's go. And how cool is that, you know? Yeah. So, you know, take some chances, work your ass off. I've known bands that they sure need. And I mean, fucking coolers. They put everything in storage. They ditched their partners. They slept in a universal space and then they hopped in the band. Fuck. You know? And the key again is persistence. Don't do this once. You need to come back. Six months later, you need to do the same post. Because what you want to get is a situation where people are like, dude, I saw these guys. They were, I had no clue who they were, but they were fucking amazing.

1:06:05And they're coming back. We should really, you should check them out. I mean, again, maybe I'm terribly old school, but I think that's exactly how this works. You know, get excitement, get engagement. And built on that. Yeah. I love that. I mean, I just, I think about, we're talking about just the, to be committed, right? It's like, it does take that commitment and that persistence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Find some DJs that like your musical. DJs are usually people that know either. And then maybe do a one-off show, you know? Talk to people. Say, okay, I mean, you know, don't expect the world. Like if you have a couple of hundred people at the minimum, you know, okay, you know what?

1:06:51Fuck it. Let's do it. Sometimes we'll have to take risks. There's never a guarantee. But I mean, 100% of shots that you don't take will not be successful. Yeah. And I've seen people do some crazy shit and I'm like, what? I've seen people do some crazy shit and it didn't work. So it's not better. But hey, you know, like I said, at the minimum, you have a great story. This is true. Stars are very, stars are clean for us. It's true. It's very true. I was wondering, with having, you know, your own project and all the artists on your label, like how do you manage to juggle all of it?

1:07:36I don't. No, no, no. I mean, so I was struggling with that for a degree. There was a moment. I haven't done any recording for a long time, even as an action business. Like, you know, let's do some stuff that we work on, some things together, and we're going to do that. The reality is this, running a company is an incredibly creative kind of project. And I actually realized another thing, we need to have sort of headspace to be creative, which means if you like, you know, when you catch the wheel, you will probably not do it, but I also think why social media can't control.

1:08:16Because you feel like you're doing something, but you might not be, ah. So sometimes it's really important to take a step back. So for a while, I was living in Germany and the U.S., I was going back and forth, but it did not. And that was really cool because it charged my batteries. Right now, I do two things. One is to live itself. And this is a lot. It's not just banking fundamentals. I still try and do things every day. We have, you know, conversations with users, how we're going to do this. Let's try something different from the Cassandra Complex. We're trying something we've never done before.

1:08:48We just dropped, go digital. And now we're going to have about six to eight weeks before they're going to go on tour. They're going to drop the physical. So we've never done that. And we just talked about the social media campaign. It was beyond just posting, hey, who is the tour today? Here's the record, which is more like Rodney actually talking about the band, telling stories, talking about the people's songs. Wanting to do a new format, really compact, and not really overproduced, just him telling a little bit. Because this is one of the coolest things. It's such a storied band. And in Europe, they're like saints, basically.

1:09:29So sharing with your fans the thought process, some of the things. They had this crazy accident on the last tour that I told you to take them out. and they did not. We also picked us to prove it. Shit like that, you know, that people don't understand. I think that makes it really exciting. So basically fill that time. Then they're going to go on the road again. And then we're already talking about 2027. This is not a thing you have to understand. 2026 is way down. I'm already even 27, right? So you need to, certain things take a little bit of time. But just being said, I'm writing a book right now

1:10:07on a completely different subject matter, body culture, aka cannabis, which I'm super excited because I'm working with one of the all-time greats of the field. And English is my second language. And this is another thing I try very consistently to make myself uncomfortable. When I'm in my comfort zone, it's autopilot that's not exciting and nothing will happen. I can shout out to myself. So when I had the opportunity to put my head in the ring, I was like, fuck it, I'm just going to do it. It's been working on it for over a year. And it's been incredibly exciting. I'm doing the layout of the art

1:10:49in the school. A big chunk of this whole project. And I'm really excited. Currently, I'm really excited to wrap it, which will be by the level four. And then I'm looking actually forward to working on this other day because, like I said, there's so much... Deathline was always a very political band. It was a way for me to express my feelings about the world. And holy shit, man. I mean, I've been around for a while. I've never seen anything like that. Yeah. It's what... You know, I consider myself American and just want to talk to ourselves about this stuff from people living in a super power suicide.

1:11:31In 18... I think a lot of American companies have them outside of our borders and how this will impact us. Yeah, changes on the horizon. So I have a lot to grow. And the way I work for me, sometimes, you know, I record a lot of things in the sense of that I have an idea, I write it down. For me, the music always starts with words, sometimes one word and then everything starts growing from there. It's always a very intuitive process. It's not that, I guess a lot of my life is incredibly structured. So that's where all that goes out for me, which is lovely.

1:12:17And I have a couple of people that I'm really excited to work with. I know I need time for that. So I'm really, really, really hoping that next year is going to be the time for me to go back and forth. But it's hard. I'm not going to lie. I mean, it's a conscious decision because what I give the other bands, I don't have going to say. And that's okay. You know, but I feel like for me, at least, my creativity is finite. And so when the tank's empty, it's empty. And I do have, I grew into this role of marketing. What I'm going to do is I'm more than I'm selling ads. I realized marketing is all about storytelling. And that's something that I think is super awesome.

1:13:07Telling those stories, making it exciting, finding the core of someone, you know, helping them to refine themselves. A lot of the bands I work with are older, they have very creative options, especially with some of the younger bands. It's so fun to look into. Who are you? You know, what makes you, I was talking about No Longer Human, he does Agrotech, which is really not bad with anyone, but he has that to be. He has almost like a classical component, I would say, that goes well beyond the genre. The genre is fairly 2D. He's very much 3D. And he's really, really protective. And I'm encouraging him, you know, and that's one of the coolest things, you know, what's, that's definitely not, I mean, this book is a label too for you, but, you know, I can encourage people.

1:13:58Sometimes people are like, shit, it's even worse. I'm like, you know what, we're doing something with the exception. Take your time, don't rush, maybe take a break, but don't give up on it, you know, keep moving because you have created something over time that is just amazing, a body of work, you know, that you should not just walk away from, you know, miss forever. So I have a couple of bands that I talk to that are not available, excited, we'll see what happens, you know, some of these things are long-term projects. I have some, there are some really, really amazing musicians that I respect a lot and we'll see what happens.

1:14:43That's exciting. It is, I mean, I have to say that there's a part of me that's, I have a deep admiration for everyone. I did a lot of thinking about that, you know, because COP is not a streamlined label, I have a lot. It's very much based on what I like and what I don't like, but especially since we started born with John, I'm able to work with people that are so amazing. I really have a ton of admiration. Sometimes, I mean, I really have pinched myself like, wow, this is so cool. I get to work with these guys, you know, that's the thing that gets me up in the morning, you know, and trying to push a little harder.

1:15:38I think it's amazing because, you know, we started our conversation and talking about the very, very beginning. And it's just like you just never know the future, right? And so if you were to tell your younger self, like, this is where you're going to be. So when I signed Red Lorry, Yellow Lorry, that was one of those moments where I was, okay, so a little bit about me. My parents made this major mistake. They got me a stereo when I was 14. And we didn't have a lot of money. I didn't really have an allowance. So I had to work myself and I could afford one vinyl a month.

1:16:18It's a very, very difficult process. But what I could do is tape all my schoolmates' tape collection, record collection. So I ended up with about 1,200 albums by the time I was 18. And then I was a gentian. Congentious Objective. Yes. So it was a draft at the time of Germany. And I said, no, I don't want to join the army. I worked for the World Cross instead. And for the first time in my life, I had some money. And my local indie record store, every time they saw me walk through the door, they smiled. And so I bought a lot of fan signs and I bought a lot more records.

1:16:59And it was incredibly exciting to find all this new other ones. And Red Lorry Yellow Lorry was on that list. It was a record that had a profound impact on them. And so when I had the opportunity to work with them, about 35 years later, there's still a part of me that's just like, I would love to travel back and tell that guy. And that guy was just like, yeah, that's total bullshit. There's no way, no way. Stabbing Westward, I told you, I saw them when they were like 15 people at the DNA. And Ungod was my player, my camp player for 10 years. I wanted to work with John for so long.

1:17:43And when I was able to actually work with him on my album, that was about, you know, I cannot even, hanging out with John, the stories that he tells me about, some of the parts he did. I mean, yeah, that's just unbelievable. I, and I'm really grateful that I still have that glee of my younger self. When I think about that, you know, because, like, my life has been an adventure. I've been incredibly lucky. I've done everything on my own. So I've worked for somebody else for six weeks and the rest is maybe freelance work and how come I'm actually the record there was a video

1:18:28of that. And it, it was not easy at all. There were lots of ups and lots of downs and sometimes we're very friendly with it. I'm not going to sugarcoat this, but Dan Wood and all of that. It's, that's a really, really good story that was very atmospheric. I mean, I wanted this, I know that, but where it took me wow. That's really nice. It's amazing. I mean, gosh, it's, it's funny because you, you know, nobody can predict the future and you know, it's just, it's a testament to saying like you show up and then you just continue it in spite of whatever setbacks, whatever challenges

1:19:17and you just keep showing up and then hopefully you end up getting to have those incredible experiences with people you really look up to. Yeah. And again, you know, what's interesting, I think it's, it's a question of also and I think in hindsight there's this one word that's really not got attracted but focus absolutely and definition of what you're trying to do and really sitting down and making a plan and I think for, for a long time, especially when I started for smaller blur, because it was kind of like, oh fuck it, we're just going to do this and we did it and things happen

1:20:00and you respond, it's very reactionary and then at some point I switched that. This is a good, might as well do that, you know, you're not signing dentistry and right now it's been the last two years and people are going like, wow, for starters, I'm looking for this. So when Stephen Archer called me, he's like, hey, I want to work with you and he's like, ah, I was looking forward to talking to you. He's like, what do you mean? It's like, well, I've been watching you. You know, so this is another thing I want to point out. We, as street professionals, we look around us

1:20:39and we see the things that happen. You know, there's bands where you're like, oh, wow, there's not going on over there. That's attractive. You know, I mean, we're business in the end. So if a band is happening, that's a great thing. And so I look for bands. And then, of course, I have industry people that come to me. And what's really nice is because that's the other problem. It's like, I, you know, I had somebody send me a track. That was their first track. They have no social interests. They don't exist. And this person probably figured, okay, you know, fuck it. I mean, you know,

1:21:21might as well, give it a shot. And I was polite. Welcome back. I said, hey, look, thank you for sending me the demo. I actually checked it out. Here are a couple of tips. I have a little thingy what I would recommend you do because the truth is at this point, you're not ready for primetime by any stretch of the imagination. The idea that you look just for music and put something out of it, I think that's quite important whatever you're trying to make. That's not my job. that's what you need to build something that starts to grow the cycle. Dayfax might say that. I take bags

1:22:07that sell 1,000 units and I manage to sell 20,000 units in the book time. That's for 50,000 units. That's building. But there was always and if you send me a track that, you know, you just did and there's absolutely nothing around it that tells me a couple of same problems. Tells me that's what you want to say three words. If you're very brave and that I really would have to you know start from scratch and I don't have time for that. I'm a little you know my time's limited and so what that means is when you go to a record label come with hey we're doing

1:22:51this thing we've did these things in the past we're having this little tour at least show me that you are working in work good because then we might have a conversation you know I might be able to help you I might not be able to help you but at least I see that you are doing your part I think people keep forgetting this I might be part of it it's your it's your you are the driver that's the thing that has changed you are now on the driver's but that means you have a lot more responsibility you know and I don't have a magic wand

1:23:28I can't get you that doesn't move to the middle I mean brick wall you know if you come to me with one brick I'm like so it'd be a little So realistic there, you know. But the truth is, if you do shape, I will probably hear about that. Or I might see it, because I do look, you know, and I'm always curious. And, you know, sometimes I go, you know, they might need a little bit more time. Sometimes somebody else wants to look earlier. That's all right. You know, I'm not... We have a truly amazing lineup. And that's another thing. You can look at who we have, look about, you know,

1:24:11I was approached, I think, as Amalie, which I really love, outside of our wheelhouse. And I have a German opera singer, and she says, hey, I'd love to work with you. And I'm like, yeah, well, unfortunately, I can't. And she's like, well, then she got back to me. The first thing that was really nice was she was very respectful. She's like, hey, I appreciate you taking your time, because it is time. And then she's like, is there anybody else? So I do research, you know, because I figured, okay, you know, she's nice. Might as well have half an hour time. I gave her some stuff back. And then we went to save Germany. It was an hour of my life, but I feel like I gave her some useful things. There's nothing in it for me, other than she did was great.

1:25:01It didn't fit for me. It didn't work. But I, in the end, I just did a thing on Facebook where I talk about service. And I think that's a record label. Services are really important thing because that's really important to do. It's a public service. Yeah. And also it's a service to musicians. Absolutely. It really, really is. And, you know, I think that there are labels like yourself that you see where it's been not just a service, but it's like a cultivating ground to help create more art. And even though it didn't directly benefit you, it's like you know that you've helped another artist, right? Cultivate.

1:25:47I know I made her day. She was really floored. She got back to me. She wrote me this long-ass response at the end, which was incredibly amazing. And I knew that I did a good thing that day, you know? And that's in the end. I wish I could do more. Trust me. Some of my perhaps conversations with myself is like, fuck. And there are limitations. But again, I wish I would have a magic room that would be beautiful for it, but I don't. But I try everything. I mean, I go to bed every night. One goal for every day is to do as much as I can, you know? And then I'm happy. It doesn't always work out that way, but for the most part.

1:26:31I think that's awesome. And, you know, one of the things we've talked about is just, you know, the importance of the connections, you know, and the moments and the stories that you create. along the way. And this is a beautiful story. I love that. And you've touched her in a way where she's like, she will always remember that. I think that was the part that was really cool. She came at me with a very professional angle. And she walked away with a smiling face involved. Somebody used to help me. I also, I have a, you know, I have a pet peeve, which is, I do understand why the record label has a very bad way.

1:27:16But the truth is, in the environment that I operate, the people that I know of, they're really trying the hardest to support others. I mean, Jim's not. Holy shit, I love Jim. I mean, Jim puts his heart and soul at Jim's, you know, and it shows. I love Nina Ekman taking over from her dad, which is something that she probably didn't expect in her life to happen. And she brings so much energy. We talk every so often, you know, about stuff behind the scenes where it's really, really cool. So, I know a lot of people in the world, and practically everyone who wants a small retail does it because they love it. It doesn't mean it always works out, so to speak, you know, managing expectations.

1:28:10But in the end, I know all these people work ass off, and not necessarily for financial gain, you know. I mean, I'm looking at Jim, and I know he's killing himself in Pittsburgh. And every sophomore week, you know, it's interesting, like, because running a record label is, I don't have a lot of peers. So there's not a lot of people that I can talk to who are like, oh, my fucking God, this is happening at work, you know. And they go like, oh, okay. It's not, you know, they don't understand. But of course, there are people that do this that I can actually talk to and understand.

1:28:49So there's one thing that I really, really love. When I started in the 90s, there was a bit of competition. It was pretty much all guys. There was a lot of testosterone, and there was, you know, like, I never really felt this is about competition. I never felt like somebody else's success takes away from my own opportunities. On the contrary, I think if somebody else is successful, that helps everybody. And I feel like we're at this point, at least on the industry level, where there's a lot of mutual support. There's a lot of behind the scenes, you know, trying to do each other. So I want to give a shout out to everybody who works at this industry.

1:29:38I know everybody knows people that I know, and they do a vote for the right reasons. Absolutely. My introduction to you was when I was researching Nina. I've had Nina and Jim both on the show, and I saw this beautiful Q&A that you did with Nina. It was her first interview, and I just, I loved how supportive you guys were of each other, how much respect and support. And I just love that. Like you were saying, it's not about the competition. It's just, you know, it's a very supportive community. And I feel Nina had a way of putting it where she was talking about all the boats rising together, you know,

1:30:28which I thought was a beautiful analogy. Yeah, I think she brings a really interesting perspective to it. I also love that she's female. Yeah. Especially the industrial music scene, very, very male-driven. And so she has a different sensibility. She's an artist herself. And it's just, the part that is crazy for me, it's, I've heard her for a long time, you know. And just to see her grow into this role, I'd be so passionate when she talks about an artist, she's so, dude, that's the coolest thing. Honestly, I was, this is not a thing that I can throw out at that. Yes, of course, I'm a careful reader.

1:31:07I'm a pretty careful sign of that for that. But if somebody steps up and she's money, time, effort, connections, honor a lot, and you feel a certain degree of gratitude in it because they don't have to. They want to help you. And again, you know, be careful, but it's easier than ever to be smart, but also appreciate when people go to the app. So that's something that sometimes, artists tend to be complicated because that's where a lot of great app comes from. And I think it's a really good idea to have a network of new people. Because that also allows you to really focus on what you're doing, which is really the most important.

1:31:59Yeah. Going back to that concept of focus, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, having, you know, a team of people that you can connect with and, you know, and when you are able to help each other, it's very, very powerful. Again, you know, inspire each other. That's another thing, you know. Yeah. And so, to Stabbing, you know, we work with David Seidman. And so, oh my God, I love this guy so much. So, these illustrations are amazing. And it usually goes like this. Like, okay, David, we need a cover. We need a backslash. Okay. Cool. Okay, so I'm going to do the booklet, and I can punch out some stuff out of the main arc, you know, and put in the booklet.

1:32:49Is that okay for you? Yeah, yeah, you can do that. Let me think about this. And then he comes back with this fucking amazing shit that he created, you know. And, I mean, the current arc for the Stabbin album is just, I have so much admiration for this guy. Because it's the same thing. He does it because he knows the band for a long time. He loves the music. And in some ways, I feel like everybody loves to create something. And so, working with him, you know, I looked at the discography, but you know, so, so, so, so, so, again, I have a privilege with Tom Baker, the guy that mastered it.

1:33:39He has mastered all the stuff. He has like three or four brands. I mean, I mean, it's just, this list of conventions is ridiculous. And with Stabbing, it's so cool because we actually have the money to go with Trump Tower, right? Yeah. With a small event, unfortunately, that's not going to happen. But, damn, you know, I loved what, like, Tom, when he mastered something and you get it back, and you know, there's this moment, by the way, the radio headphones, I think it's a lot, so, this thing. You know, what I do is it's late at night, and I just sit down, and it fills my eyes, and it just disappears.

1:34:17The craft, the, it's, yeah, as you can tell, I have a hard time, I don't have a hard time in particular, because it's, it's so, so, to some degree, that's one of my personal joys of working for that, that you can really have the best. Yeah, you know, I mean, we match it all, and I'm just like, I cannot believe, he asked me one time, I was like, so, do you ever want to mix anything, and I'm like, fuck no, why would I touch the board? No, because he is so good, the way he positions things, the way, it's easy to fill something, but then it's clutter, he organizes it in a way where it's not cluttered, you know, and we can't work from next to another, you know, so, I mean, this is what I'm trying to say.

1:35:26Mark from Adolf has been working with Stolberg. I got the record. It's not so good for him. He's just perfect. You know, it's just, yeah, mind-blowing, absolutely mind-blowing. I have a couple of people that I was able to work with and I'm just like, nothing is more awesome. You know, this is really stressful that you get a record if you want to love it, but you don't always do. And the thing is when you work with people that are back to it, you're talking to me. Overall, it's like, wow. So yeah, that's definitely my job. Absolutely. Gosh, I mean, I feel that's amazing because like you were saying, working with people at such a high level who are just in this place, in their lives, in their careers, in their craft, that are able to do that and to be a part of that.

1:36:23I can understand how exciting that is. And so effortless. I mean, that's the thing, you know, because I know sometimes people struggle, stop them. They say it takes 10 years to do a master, but you can't master anything. Well, imagine you work on something preferable. You do things with very little effort, which is pure zen, right? And it's mind-blowing. It's inspiring. It's really inspiring. Yeah. Good. That's my job. Yes. Well, and I feel like it gives people hope, too, to go like, okay, if I dedicate myself to something that I'm really passionate about, there's hope on the other side that I can perhaps, like, achieve that level of mastery as myself.

1:37:08Honestly, I think, yes. I mean, I honestly think, I would use myself as a perfect example. I don't feel like I was particularly talented. I just knew I wanted it. I don't know why. That was a gift. Having a drive was a gift. But over time, you know, we get better. It's one of the, it sounds easy, but it really is. You know, the Japanese have this thing. You do one thing and you do it for the rest of your life and you do it fucking eight, ten hours a day. Yeah. And the truth is, it's, it's a no-brainer. You will get good with what it can do.

1:37:48I think the problem is instant gratification, you know, where it's very strange because I feel my own attention span is dropping dramatically and that's not a good thing. You know, I feel like Germany, they have this new word, which is basically decelerate, and it's a life concept because our life has accelerated dramatically. We go constantly, you know, there's always something going on, I want to be entertained 24-7 and they're saying, no, take a break, put your device away, walk on the beach. and make that a thing because you will be happier and ultimately more productive, stronger, less distraction. I was like, yeah, that's really cool.

1:38:36It's an interesting concept because I'm so long gone from Germany where I work to the world and so myself and my friends go like blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, what's that word? Yeah, and they have to explain it to me what it means. I definitely am on board with that concept. One thing that you had mentioned earlier was like, feeling like when your tank is empty, is this something like decelerating maybe is a way to help fill that tank? Absolutely. I think just, I mean, again, can you afford it? Step back. Sometimes you need to, I learned, so my life was really crazy for 15 years.

1:39:15I was literally three months in Germany, three months in the US. And it was very strange. In Germany I was the business person, in America I was a musician, producer, touring musician. And so the flight itself is kind of dramatic and that was my vortex tunnel to this other world. And I realized every time I came back from Germany, I was so eager to do that, because I was just dealing with paperwork at the end, that's not as exciting, right? So I just recently took two weeks off, which was incredible, and I was talking to Rodney about that. I said, you know, I really need to focus, focus again on the bands that I have, because every

1:40:01band needs its own approach. No two bands are the same, a set of people. And so, I will never tell you, I can say, I think C&D are great ideas for you, see all the other options you pick, but ultimately, I have more creative energy, I have more, it's not just okay, we do the record, we do the cooking, cooking is really attempting to develop a routine, that's how you do things, and I'm going to agree, but that is the case. But, one of the coolest things about the musical industry is that it changes all the time. You can never, if you're a plumber, and you have your business, and there are the customers, you can ride your whole life. If you're a band, and you're very successful, there's a very high probability that your sound, 10 years down the line, is incredible for it.

1:41:06And so the question is, how can we adjust without losing our own personality? What can we do to stay relevant? You know, it's an individual decision for all of that. So, I'm really grateful and for that, like, source ball time. And it makes it more fun, again, a little bit more energy. Absolutely. I do love to think about, okay, how can we, what can we do that is not standard? I think there are certain promises that are just not true. You know, we do this and it's going to be great. And I don't believe that. It's almost individual for every musician. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And gosh, I mean, I think about like just the way different bands and different artists speak to me. And every single person is so different. Every single one that has touched me is so different. It's apples and oranges.

1:42:03Actually, I love that. I didn't think about that. But for you, it's the same thing. You have this opportunity to learn from everyone that you talk to. You're obviously pretty cool people. So there's a lot of wisdom coming over through your desk, so to speak. I think that's really cool. Very smart. Thank you. Well, it brings me a lot of joy. I just I love getting to hear people's perspectives and inspirations. And yeah, it brings me a lot of joy just to hear it like it's like to see you light up about, you know, your your artists, your music, the process itself. Like it's it's a really beautiful, inspiring thing. And so and I love to perpetuate that in the world myself.

1:42:48Yeah, I mean, I think we don't have that on tape, but I was talking about Alice. You're doing a wonderful job. Thank you. I think I noticed this was again, you know, this was a band that I noticed by seeing you live and then going already like, wow, that's a really cool stage show. Wow, this is, you know, costume. There's a production. Somebody put thought in this to entertain me. Wow. Then I looked at your social and then I'm like, we do this fan thing, you know, I think you did something like a first-time fan, that's this, and there's this big-ass package and, you know, handwritten this and that. And I'm like, wow, A, holy shit, that's a lot of dedication and a lot of work.

1:43:32But also, how cool is it that this person is incredibly fortunate? So, I mean, I think, you know, talking about blueprints, what can be done? Really? I mean, I was really impressed. I really wanted to share that with the world because I'm not decently impressed. And when I see someone doing all the hard work and, at the same time, being a really interesting artist and sticking with it, you know, over it, you've been doing this for a while, you know? So, same thing, focused dedication. And it looks, at least from the outside, that it's successful, it's doing its thing, you know? And I'm like, damn, dude, that's something

1:44:16that I absolutely love. When I see a band that is working with and succeeding, you know, I have a lot of respect for that. And so, anyway, just wanted to make sure that's on the record. I really, really appreciate that. It really means a lot. Yeah, like, you know, we were talking about, you never know when you create something, how it will connect with people. You know, you just keep on building and you keep on putting your bricks together. And, you know, it's, it means a lot when other people are like, oh, I see your wall that you're building. Yeah, very much so. And I think that's, that might be, you know, that's something I want really to share.

1:44:59You didn't know any of that. No. But if you make waves, it will get noticed in the right places. And the same is true for promoter. You know, you come, I'm a promoter in a club and get this cold call. And then I go through the research, you know, oh, they're happening. They're doing shit. They're working there. You know, and I mean, again, you know, if I run a club, I have X amount of money that I have to spend with the doors open that night. And I have to get a technical tool. And, you know, I have to make sure that the band that I book doesn't just show up and expect it to, to carry all the way.

1:45:42You know, it's another thing I hear from parents, I go to the promoter, you know, you know what, you're right. But also, it's not just the promoter's job. You know, it's really, if you're playing in Detroit two weeks from now, you might want to talk to some people online, you know, start, you know, hyping it, maybe figure out if there's a radio station, you know, network. And that happens to be working. So, I feel like a lot of times there's this built-in entitlement. And fortunately, competition is very stiff. There's a lot of gaps out there. You know, none of these things have, they're not really about music. This being said, if you didn't have skill sets like that, those are life skills.

1:46:37So, if the music doesn't work out, you still learn a lot and you have a great time. This is true. This is true. And hopefully made friends along the way. It will. I mean, this is, okay, this is one thing that I really enjoy. I'm, strangely enough, I'm extrovert. But when you go places in our music scene, the kindness, the excitement, when you come to a new town, that's so cool. You know, it's something that I don't take for granted. I think this is really, really awesome. People are very friendly. That's one thing. You'd ask me about Europe and the U.S. That's one thing that I really like about the U.S. People are very warm, engaging. They're very friendly.

1:47:29Europeans tend to be a bit more sad and awful. It's not because they're hassles, but that's just the way they're built in our race. But the markets are very enthusiastic, you know, and very, very powerful. That's a beautiful place. Oh, yeah. It's, you know, it's amazing to me because I mentioned to you before this dream that I grew up in a small town and I didn't really fit in, but I found my home in live music. I found, I was like, and other people and from all over. Like, you connect with people in this way and that's, you know, I feel like the world is a better place when people get a place to put their stuff and expression.

1:48:08I love that you didn't quite fit in. Yeah, you know, I think this was one of the coolest things. Again, you know, I love the Bay Area for that. This is a place where people tend to go that didn't quite fit in some of themselves, you know, so especially the useful life. Yeah, yeah. Oh, we are visited once again by the wonderful Max. And his favorite bed on the planet. Can you imagine? So this is one of the things he loves to do. It's like, you know, I start working and he's like, I'm like, dude. How do you get work done? It's hard. Sometimes he has to, I have a strict, I distract him with food. So my mom moved in with us and I have six cats. I love cats, six cats a lot.

1:49:01Lots of choice, you know. But he has wrapped her around his finger so I can say, hey, I'm happy to sidetrack him for work. I got you. I saw a picture, it was so sweet, of your mom helping you with merch fulfillment and that made my heart so happy. That's amazing. You know, I mean, I would say it's a family business. My wife is awesome. She does all the data management. So, you know, for the bandwagon, it works for band camp. It's a little creaking at the seams. It's not a situation because it's so much. But yeah, mom's packing. And so it's really cool because, I mean, obviously I grew up with her. We work really well today.

1:49:50We work really fast, really efficient. And she still has that. So I can, like, look and go, hey, I'm like, can you pack this hundred for me? And she's like, that's an hour of the show. It's really fun. Yeah, I'm really grateful that I have her now. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, dear friends, thank you all so much for joining us today. Christian, thank you for taking the time to chat and to share your wisdom and your inspiration. I mean, I just feel like I could talk to you for hours. It's amazing to hear all of your philosophy. I really love the philosophy that you have and the approach that you've had and just how much you've done for the music community.

1:50:38It really is incredible work. Thank you. Appreciate that. It was fun. And as you can tell, yes, I do love to talk about this. I love it. Well, my dear friends, we have a few more episodes coming up on ZAC. We're going to be interviewing Tom Shear from Assemblage 23, first Sunday of October. We're also going to be having Carl Leermont and Ashley Butler.