Tom Shear, in full

0:00Thank you. Hi, friends. I am Tash, and this is the last episode of Unwritten Rules of the Road for the year. I cannot think of a better person to cap off this season than getting to chat with the incredible Tom Shear of Assemblage 23. Tom, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. Well, gosh, I don't even know where to start. Usually, I'm just like, I'm just going to jump right in. Yeah, yeah. Sounds good. Well, last time we were messaging each other, you had come off what looked like some incredible shows in Europe, and you're already getting ready to go back to Germany and Sweden very shortly.

1:24Gosh, what a turnaround. It seems like quite a whirlwind in your universe right now. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's good to be busy when you're in the music business, for sure. So, yeah, we had some just incredible, just an incredible hand show of shows in Germany this summer that were way better attended than I had anticipated. You know, it had been a while since we had played some of these festivals and stuff like that, so it's good to know that there's people out there who still care. I mean, you've created music that it feels just like so timeless, like I feel like it just spans time.

2:09And, you know, I was re-listening to Assemblage 23, Getting Ready, and I was just like, gosh, it's like it hits me in the present. So it doesn't surprise me that it continues to expand where you go. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the cool thing about music is that it's not, I mean, I suppose for some people it is just something that you just kind of passively absorb while you're doing other things. But for so many of us, it's tied into, like, really tangible memories and important times in our life, and they kind of become, you know, permanently entwined. And I can't think of, you know, I mean, I guess any sort of art can kind of act in that way, but I think that's one of the things that makes music special is that you form a relationship with it almost, with a song that really connects with you.

3:02Yeah, absolutely. I think, and it's true of certain artists like yourself, where I think if you create from that place, it does have a way of connecting to people's hearts, you know, in that tangible way that you're talking about. Yeah, and, you know, there's plenty of music that I like that's just, you know, it appeals to you kind of at that bass level of where it's like, oh my god, that melody is so insanely catchy, I can't get out of my head. Or, you know, it's just the feel of a song or something, and it might just have the dumbest lyrics ever, but there's something that still really connects to you about it.

3:41But I think if you can, if you hear a song that expresses something that you felt that you haven't been able to express yourself, that's really, that kind of brings it up to another level. And I guess that's kind of what I mean about, like, forming a relationship with the music. Like, sure, there's this kind of junk food music that's fun and dumb or whatever, and you might have happy memories of it, but it doesn't kind of connect with your heart and your soul in the same way as something that has real meaning to you. Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, I was thinking, like, as you were sharing, like, have you ever noticed that sometimes it's like you discover meanings of the music as you're writing it?

4:27Like, you might discover something about yourself, like, that you might not have known before. Yeah, and, you know, sometimes the context changes, you know, there'll be a song that I wrote kind of with one intention, and then years later, I go through an experience, I'm like, oh, that's funny. That kind of relates to that song in a way that I hadn't really intended. But yeah, I'm sure that happens to lots of people. Oh, totally. Definitely relate to that. And also, like, it depends, too, on the audience you're sharing with at the moment. Because, yeah, like, I feel like it changes from show to show, you know.

5:07Oh, sure. Yeah. And, you know, as time goes on, and you get older, you know, you have different perspectives on things than you did when you were younger. So your relationship to the music can change as you change as a person. Yeah, absolutely. And it's really what I love, too. It's like when you have people that reflect back to you, like, what your songs mean to them. And that changes as well, where you're like, oh, wow, I didn't think about it in that way. And that's very touching. Yeah. I, for many years, was very stubborn in that I wouldn't talk about what my personal meaning behind a song that I wrote was. Because I thought, that's such a subjective thing.

5:54And somebody who's had totally different experiences than I have may interpret that song in a way completely, in a way that was different from what I intended. But it's just as real and just as meaningful for them. They just had different experiences than I did. I got over that. You know, that was just, that was, that was young, young Tom trying to be the serious artist or whatever like that. But so I'm not as hung up about discussing that anymore. But yeah, I, you know, going to shows and meeting with fans and hearing them tell their interpretations or how it affected them is really, really interesting because you realize that, you know, art is kind of a collaborative effort between the artist and the person who's consuming the art.

6:45And the artist loses control of that the moment that they release it out into the wild to be observed, listened to, enjoyed. And at that point, the song isn't solely yours. It also belongs to the people who feel a connection to it and their connection to it may be in some way that you never imagined before. And I find that really fascinating. Yeah, absolutely. I think that, like, gosh, like you were saying, it's like, it's a shared communal experience. And so like, I don't know, in that way, it's like, it feels like you find your human connections in that way where you're like, oh, you relate to this too, in your own way.

7:28Yeah, it's, that's, that's one of the powers of music to kind of bring people to together. And it's, you know, a perfect example of that is, you know, the song Disappoint. And, you know, for those not familiar with the song, it's a song I wrote after my dad killed himself. And it was about trying to make sense of that experience and what I was going through in this really raw kind of emotional moment. And I realized when we went out on tour, every night, maybe three or four people would come up and share stories about somebody close to them who they had lost and how it had affected them.

8:12And I, you know, I guess I didn't realize how widespread an experience that is, unfortunately, because there's a taboo around it. People don't really like to openly talk about it because for whatever reason, I think there's a sense of shame kind of associated with it. So that was something that really opened my eyes to how powerful, you know, lyrics can be in communicating ideas to people in music. Because when I started out, I guess I never thought about the fact that somebody was going to be listening to this and interpreting what I'm saying. I just, I wrote lyrics because songs have lyrics, you know. And it wasn't until I went out there and I met people and I talked to people and listened to their stories that I realized like, wow, there's really something powerful with being able to communicate in this way that's just different from any other sort of way that we communicate.

9:16Absolutely. It's such an amazing, magical thing too when you hit this pocket of figuring out like how to pair it all together and like weave it, right? Where it's like, okay, the melody and the groove and the lyrics and it's like a, it's a weaving, you know, that hits in a certain way. And yeah, I think that that is, it's, it's incredible to like really experience your songwriting in that way, Tom. Like it's, it's very powerful and it's really beautiful because I feel like having the courage to, to share, you know, vulnerable things like that, it opens it up, I think for other people as well to be like, hey, maybe it's okay for me to share that, you know?

10:01Yeah. And, and I mean, even just, it's a positive thing just to have people talk about it because, you know, I think part of the reason that, you know, something like suicide is, is still so prevalent is because people don't talk about it and people don't understand what the aftermath of that looks like. And it's one of those things that I think you can try to explain it to somebody who hasn't been through it. But I think people who've been through it will agree that it's something that you, only other people who have experienced it can truly understand. So, you know, I think in terms of the fans that we would talk to after shows about that, you know, it was a sense of like, they felt seen, they felt heard that, you know, this is something that people don't talk about that's, that's being acknowledged. And I just think it's, it's not to keep repeating myself,

10:57but this is just one of the powers of music, you know, is to, you know, I remember, you know, I've been a very avid music fan since, you know, my, right before my teenage years, really, and I got obsessive about it, you know, every, every cent that I earned at my crappy after school job would go straight to the record store, every time that I got paid. And it's, it's, it's just such a gift to be able to have that in your life and to get to experience it from both sides, like as a fan and somebody who listens to music and to change and become somebody who participates and makes the music. But, you know, when I started out, when I was that high school student, it was the same thing where, you know, I was, you know, angsty, like many teenagers,

11:57You don't really know why, and it's a confusing time in your life, but you put on that cure record, and it's like, see, I'm not the only one who's experiencing these feelings. You feel like it's going to be okay. I'm not completely alone in the world. Yeah, absolutely. It's such a beautiful way of putting that. I wanted to take a moment, by the way, and just say thank you all in the chat for hanging out. It's wonderful to see you. Michael Davies is sharing that I find listening to my father's favorite music helps reconnect and heal after losing him to suicide. So sorry that you did as well, Michael. But yeah, that's definitely a beautiful way to be able to heal, hopefully.

12:43For sure. I find myself connecting with some music that my dad listened to that's not stuff that I would ordinarily listen to, but there's a sense of his presence when I hear it that's kind of cool. That it just makes you feel good to kind of revel in that memory of somebody who's, you know, you can't be with anymore. Yeah, it's like such a, it is a really unique and special way to connect in a way that only you would know how to. So, yeah. Yeah. Fleshfields. Gotta go. Tom, you have been a mentor to me since I was a teenager and I owe so much to you.

13:30Similarly, you were a mentor to Charles of Lost Signal, helping him from the beginning. How many other bands have you mentored and why did you choose to spend time on doing so? Well, first of all, thanks for showing up, Ian. It's always nice to hear from you. You know, the funny thing is about the time that, you know, I was helping out Ian and Charles is that I only knew marginally more than they did. You know, I was still figuring things out myself. And I guess in some ways, sometimes the best way to learn things yourself is to try teaching somebody else. You know, when you're going through those steps in a methodical way, it kind of develops your way of thinking about it.

14:21But, you know, when I was first getting into music and recording and all that, this was all pre-internet. And people take for granted the fact that, you know, you can fire up your browser, you can download a free DAW and, you know, get a couple free synths or whatever. And get a, you know, record through your phone mic or whatever, and you can record an album. And if you don't know what you're doing, there's five million YouTube videos that will teach you how to do it. And that just didn't exist back then. And even, you know, I grew up in rural New Hampshire, so it's not like there were tons of resources around for me to learn about this kind of stuff.

15:06So I always hated when people were sort of gatekeeping knowledge. I, you know, I worked after college, I worked as a video editor for many years. And there were some people that I worked with that would, you know, they wouldn't show you how to do something, you know, if there was something technical or something like that, you know, because they thought their value was that they knew how to do that. Nobody else did. And I always thought that was so stupid and counterproductive. So I always just, I like sharing knowledge and if I can save somebody the years of banging my head against the wall, trying to figure some of this stuff out, all the better.

15:47And, you know, for all the very many negative things about the internet, being able to reach a lot of people and share information and teach people things is one of the really great things about it. So I just, I just think it's a great, music is such a great thing to have in your life. And if I can make the barrier to entry for somebody a little bit easier, why not? Because that's something that that's a gift that they can have until, you know, until they keel over dead one day. That's like, it really sticks with you. It's, it's one of those, it's one of those, I don't want to say hobby, because that, that almost doesn't treat it seriously enough.

16:38But it's, it's just something that you can have in your life that really just enhances it in so many different ways. Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I absolutely am in line with that ethos. And, you know, I absolutely believe that if the world, if everyone has a place to put their stuff, I think the world can be a better place. Because we all need a place to put our stuff. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, it's really beautiful. I really love to, like, just sort of the idea of the fact that creativity is infinite and that it's, there's an infinite source and only you will bring what you bring uniquely.

17:18So it's, it takes the competition out. So it's just like, yeah, we'll just share and then you go forth and into your own world and, you know, express in your own ways that you will. Yeah, and that, you know, that's part of the kind of the journey of being a musician is because, you know, for the most part that, you know, I guess everybody learns a little bit differently. But I think one of the really common ways for people to learn is to try and imitate stuff that they really like and kind of reverse engineer it and figure out how it works. And it's ironically that process of kind of aping what other people are doing that forms your, what becomes your sound.

17:57You know, it's like a recipe in a sense, like, you know, you have two teaspoons of this band mixed with this band. And because taste is subjective and, you know, especially if you have very eclectic musical tastes, your combination of those ingredients is going to be completely different than somebody else who has, you know, a different kind of curated experience of bands that they like, that they want to sound like. So it's kind of through imitation that we find the path leads us to finding our own, hopefully original sound. Well, if I may ask, how did you learn? Like, how did you get started? So weirdly, I was even from the time when I was like four or five years old, there was something that appealed to me about music and musical instruments.

18:51Nobody in my family, aside from one of my aunts, had any musical ability at all. And so it wasn't something that I, I mean, my parents listened to music, but it wasn't something that they weren't making music or anything like that. And it wasn't, you know, they weren't like obsessive about it in the way that I am. So there was something just genetic in me that music appealed to. And, you know, when I first became aware of electronic music and synthesizers, I didn't even know what they were. But I heard them and I was like, whatever that sound is, I want to be a part of that.

19:34Like that is that something about that really connects with me. And, you know, I start off with a little Casio, one of those little things that's got the auto rhythms and stuff like that. And it came with these little songbooks that were like kind of would teach you kind of to play easy melodies. But I found out pretty quickly that I could figure things out by ear faster. And that's sort of what kicked things into high gear for me and where I really started to learn enough to, you know, where I could I could hear a melody in a song and I could figure out how to play it pretty quickly.

20:10And then that really started the fire as far as like making my own music, because once you understand the parts, then you can start to put them together into something that's coherent and whole. Yeah, that's really I really love that. I love that you were saying, too, somewhere in your DNA, you know, that you had that impulse even, you know. I mean, it is it is a really interesting idea to me because, you know, you could go on YouTube right now. Right. And you can find probably 500 videos of infants dancing to music. Yeah. They didn't learn that. You know, they're three years old. They can't even, you know, control when they go to the bathroom.

20:55But something innate is, you know, even before a lot of the the reflexes and kind of cognitive abilities develop, that is something that is inherent in us, something about just the beat of music that causes that reaction. And, you know, there's so much that we don't know about humans and the way we work. But that's something I really want to know more about someday, because it's it's always something that I found really fascinating. It's like, why is that something that's because it's not something that's, you know, like pulling your finger away when you put it in the fire. It's not like a self-preservation kind of thing.

21:36So there's there's not sort of that, you know, is this something that's going to help you survive kind of thing? But it's definitely there. And I would love to know more about why. Yeah, I'm fascinated by that as well. It's it definitely is interesting. And and I know there's some people that are more attuned to it than others. Like some people might have like the visual, you know, or, you know, embodiment with dance. And I find it fascinating for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Radon Man RC is in the chat. Thank you for joining us and says, I can't count how many hours I spent with my Contempt CD playing at full blast in my head headphones the winter of 1999.

22:22Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, that was I mean, that album was really a long time coming because, you know, I'd been making music for a very long time before we got picked up by a label. So, you know, a lot of those songs were already five, six, seven years old by the time that the album came out. But I still remember my friend Ed helped me with the mastering of that one. He lived a couple hours away from me. And I still remember driving home. It was like, you know, one or two in the morning and I had a long drive ahead of me and just listening to that finished Mastered album for the first time.

23:07And it was such a it was such a an amazing feeling because it had been such a long time that I had been doing this. And now knowing that this was going to get to be out in the world and heard by other people, aside from just, you know, a handful of friends and other people that I had heard this kind of stuff before was it was really cool. Gosh, that's amazing. It's like I just love how it translated in that way. And like here we are in the present and, you know, it's like, I don't know. I just love how music will transmorph, you know, like we talked about earlier, where it's like, OK, now this many years later,

23:50it's like we have a different experience with it, you know. But it has a rich history, like it has a rich history, which I think makes it that much more powerful and meaningful. Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Well, I wanted to actually like ask you about the beautiful remix that just came out for Believe. I really love remixes. I love hearing people's like interpretations. And yeah, I was wondering if you could share like like kind of the inspiration behind getting that out in the world for us. So that was actually the urging of of Gail from Metropolis. She really when the album originally came out, she really, really liked that song and thought that it was appropriate kind of for the times that were.

24:45We're going through, you know, everything is very doom and gloom. And I guess she, you know, she found something appealing about, you know, a song that it has an optimistic feel to it. And, you know, we started talking about this summer. She had talked about maybe doing something before these dates that we had coming up. And also, you know, it's around the time last year when the singles and the album came out. And, yeah, that was just kind of how that got started. But, yeah, I love the way it came out. It really, it reminds me a lot of, like, mid-80s kind of remixes, like the club remixes that they had back then.

25:32And, yeah, I think it came out really great. So I hope people will check it out. Yeah, no, it's really cool. And I love that, like, when you have a remix as well, it reminds you, like, I need to listen to this song again and again. Yeah, I have always been a big fan of remixes just because it's, you know, it's just interesting to hear the same idea filtered through another person's creative process. And, you know, it can give you a greater appreciation for certain parts of the original, or it can completely recontextualize the way that you hear the sound. If it's a really creative sort of remix, so I've always thought that the remixes were super cool.

26:13Yeah, for sure. Have you ever actually performed any of the remixes live, or is it always just, like, from the Assemblage 23 lens? I've done, there's remixes of my own work that I've done that we've performed live. Like, there was a remix of Sorry that we did for some compilation that we would do live. We did a couple remixes. Actually, we're back to doing the original now, but there was a version of Naked that we did that was, like, a live-only remix. Right now, we're doing, like, a new version of Drive that's another one that's just live-only. And I think, you know, the danger when you're a live electronic act is not differentiating the experience that somebody could just have at home listening to your music.

27:12You know, because it is so, it's more controlled and less chaotic than when you're playing with, you know, quote-unquote, real instruments. So I always like to maybe, you know, do stuff like that, like do special versions so that it's like somebody came out to see me, I should give them something that they can't get other than coming out to see us. And plus, it's fun for us, too, because, you know, some of these songs that we're playing are like 25 years old or something like that. And, you know, I still am proud of those songs and have a connection to it. But after you've played it 300 times, it doesn't, you know, it's a different experience than those first couple of times that you play it for sure.

27:59So it's it can be fun for us and keep it fresh for us as well to do different versions. Yeah. And I love like you were saying, it's it's like it's the difference between going to a show where you're like, oh, that sounds like the the album versus. Like, oh, man, you don't know what's going to happen next. Yeah, it keeps it exciting for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways that's the, you know, the appeal of live music is the same appeal as people who go to watch like, you know, race cars. It's like or the hockey game, you know, they don't go for the game.

28:33They go waiting for a fight to break out or they wait for the crashes and the, you know, in the in the races. But I think, you know, it's that that idea of like, wow, things could go wrong. And it's that's what makes it impressive is that these people are hopefully, you know, so well practiced and so well versed with their instruments that they can play it night after night, you know, with, you know, very, very few screw ups. So you lose a little bit of that danger with with electronic music. You don't have to completely lose it, but there's just by the nature of the way that it's made, it's it's not going to be the same thing when you got a bassist, a guitarist, a singer and a drummer.

29:17Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think that's it's like it's I think that's where you can really it's like very creative. It's so creative to think of like, OK, like, how am I going to like exhibit this and express this live? Which you do such a beautiful job of. I got to, you know, we played together at Fixation and, you know, it's just you just bring such beautiful energy to the stage. And it's also a testament to the actual power of the songs, because I feel like, you know, when the songs carry weight and it connects with people in a certain way, it's almost like it's like the music carries itself, if that makes sense.

29:59Yeah. And it's, you know, as a performer, too, it's, you know, the people in the audience are always thinking, it's like, oh, you know, I'm watching the show up on the stage. But the audience is my show, you know, when I'm up there and there, you know, there's certain shows where a certain song you can see just reaches people and you can see it. You know, you know, people might be crying or smiling or dancing or whatever, but you just you just feel like it's like, I don't know what it is, but this just connected tonight. And it's it's a great feeling because, I mean, that's that's our job as artists is to communicate, essentially.

30:39And when you can kind of tell that you communicated what you were trying to communicate, it's a it's a very nice feeling. That's such a beautiful way of putting it. I really like the idea that the audience is your show. Yeah. So it's like it's like a feedback loop, right? It is for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's. You know, I'm sure you've you found the same thing, like there's some audiences you have to get going, you know, like you got to coax them out a little bit. And so in that case, you've got to bring that energy and hope that that spills over them.

31:16And then they give it back to you and you get that feed loop going. And then there's other times where you go out on stage and that crowd is yours from the start. You know, they're they are ready. And then you just, you know, the feed back loop picks up again, just with significantly less effort on your part. That's that's a really awesome feeling to be on stage and to get that. Just that sense of energy from the audience is incredible. Yeah, absolutely. It's like and, you know, and from the audience perspective, too, it's transportive when you when you catch that wave, when it's just right.

31:54And you're like, oh, that's an amazing show, you know? Yeah, yeah, for sure. So Fleshfield is asking, what is the part of writing a song that you like the least? Definitely lyrics. And unfortunately, that's kind of what I've become known for. So it's not it's not something that I can simply not do or kind of half ass my way my way through it. But like I should clarify that it's like I like the end result. Like I I like when I finish something, I look at it and I'm like, how did I come up with that? That's I really like how this came together. And but it's it's a very stressful process for me because, you know, I really do want to hold myself to a standard where, you know, you're not just falling into, you know, trite cliches or or dumbing things down.

32:54You know, I've always appreciated music that's got a sense of intelligence behind it and that you get the sense that somebody worked on on the lyrics and not just scrolled them on the back of a napkin 20 minutes before they recorded the vocals, which which can also, you know, yield great results, too. But so it's it's a it's a process that's just full of effort for me. And it's not for me. The musical part is I don't want to say effortless, but but much less stressful to me where it's it just kind of maintains itself. It kind of it just kind of happens in itself. And lyric writing is a lot more stressful for me and just requires a lot more effort.

33:44So I think that, you know, at the end of the day, if you're unless you're doing instrumental music, if you don't put in as much effort to the lyrics as you do the music, you've really only written half a song, you know. But I think the best music is the stuff that kind of nails both of those things together. And so I really I put a lot of pressure on myself with that kind of thing. So it's it's less creating music for me is very relaxing. Writing lyrics is I don't want to I guess stressful is probably too much, but it's it's it's feels more like work to me than the musical part.

34:29Do you have different approaches with how you write lyrics or depending on the song or is there kind of a way, like a singular way that you've approached that? It's it's kind of evolved over the years. I used to keep a notebook and I would just, you know, some sometimes you just you hear a phrase or a word or something and it just kind of has an appeal to you in some way. And I would just write it down in this in this notebook. And when it came time to and same thing, if I if I came up with an idea for like a verse or something like that, just write it down and come back and revisit it later.

35:09And, you know, I would use kind of this page that's got all the random words and phrases. If I got stuck, sometimes I would kind of fish in there and see if there's something that I could work into what I was working on to to get past that block. But now it's it's evolved. So it's really I usually start writing the lyrics probably about three quarters of the way through the song being finished musically. And part, you know, part of that is just because I'm putting it on. I'm procrastinating because I don't enjoy it as much as the musical part. But another part of it is that the way that the music comes together can influence the lyrics and the mood of the song.

35:57And vice versa, of course. Sometimes it goes back and forth. So now it's really, you know, when the song is mostly done is when I start writing it. And I kind of do it in a much more linear way than I used to, where it's like I will get an idea for what the topic of the song is. And then just kind of sketch out. Sometimes I'll sketch out kind of like a thesis statement for what the idea is that I'm kind of trying to communicate. So when I get stuck, I can kind of revisit that and let that guide me in a way to do it.

36:38So it's a little bit more straightforward now than it was in my early days. But I think part of that is also just because I'm more comfortable doing it. I was pretty self-conscious about it in the beginning. And now I feel pretty comfortable with it. That's a really cool thing to think about, like a thesis statement. It's like it's kind of, I guess, what like writers use outlines for their stories. And that's a good guideline, I guess, to remind you like, oh, this is this is the thing that I'm going for. Well, it can help keep you on track, too. You know, if you write, you know, a couple lines and you're like, I mean, that sounds fine, but that doesn't really push me closer to the goal of communicating this idea.

37:26So maybe take those, write them down somewhere and maybe they can get used in something else in the future. But it can it can definitely influence the way that the songs come together. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it is. It is one of those things, too, like you were saying, I think that probably like over time, too, you start finding like your systems where you're like, OK, I have a better idea of like how to approach this now. Yeah, I mean, that is something that, you know, the longer that you do music, you do have developed these sort of methodologies and workflows that work for you. But I would almost argue the more important thing that you learn are what your bad habits are and what the things are that prevent you from getting your work done.

38:16And it's a constant battle between those tendencies and, you know, just at least developing an awareness of, I have a tendency to do this, I need to keep an eye on that, is a good thing to do. So it can kind of keep you on track. Yeah, definitely. Oh, so going back to the experience of playing shows, Fleshfield says, next time I go to an A23 show, I'm going to just stare at him while picking my nose. Enjoy your show, sir. I wish I could say he was the first to have taken that, but I've seen it all at this stage. Sorry. Star Moonshine, what a beautiful handle, says, for me, other A23 fans are the best. I found one in the wild visiting family in Jax, and we were fast friends sharing our favorite songs and how awesome Tom is. It's the best.

39:20Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, it's really cool when you find your people and, like, you put out, like, a really beautiful, warm-hearted energy, Tom, so I can definitely see how people collect and find each other here. Well, you know, we always make an effort to meet with fans after the shows. Like, sometimes you can't because, you know, a venue's double booked or something like that, but we always really try to go out of our way to do that. And I've just met so many interesting, great people, you know, just through our fan base, and that was kind of an unexpected thing that I didn't expect to come out of this when I started.

40:03Yeah, it's something I absolutely love about, like, we were talking about live music is the community part. It's just, you meet friends in a way that you just never would otherwise, so. Yeah, and especially, you know, with other musicians, you know, I was thinking about this the other day, like, you know, how after, you know, a president retires, you know, another president gets elected, you always see all the old presidents hang out, even if they were completely ideologically opposed, or they had horrible things to say about each other when they were campaigning. But at the end of the day, they're friends because they have this shared experience that only they can really understand. And I think that's the same thing with, like, friendships that you develop with other bands, is that, you know, the, I mean, well, for one thing, getting up in front of a room full of strangers and, like, pouring your heart out is a very unnatural experience in itself.

40:59But, you know, on a grander scale, the experience of touring is such an unreality. You know, it is so, it is a parallel reality to our own that until you've gone, you know, you've spent six weeks out on the road, like, staying in dodgy hotels and, like, being in dodgy neighborhoods and eating dodgy food, and you don't really understand what it's really like. And so I think, you know, like those ex-presidents, all these bands are like, you know, it's sort of like, okay, they get it. They've been through this. So it does give us sort of familial kind of feel. Absolutely. Actually, okay, so when you first experienced your first tour, was it just sort of like, whoa, this is different? Or did it feel like a natural fit, like being on the road?

41:53I mean, before we did, you know, proper tours, you know, we mostly did kind of one-off shows. And that's, you know, that's kind of like the taster of what the experience is. Because, you know, you still, you have those weird experiences. But when we did a couple mini tours when I first moved to Seattle, which was around shortly after the time that Failure came out. And, you know, it's, I don't know how to describe the experience. Like, you meet the weirdest people, you have the strangest experiences, you know, you do things that you, like, you're, my tolerance for what I will put up with on tour, as far as like a crappy hotel room or something like that.

42:41Is completely divorced from how I am in real life. Like, if I showed up some of the places that we've stayed, or, you know, even some of the like, awful venues that we've, that we've played in, places I never would be caught dead stepping in outside of my musical life. So it really is just a, it's a different way of existing. And it's funny how quickly it becomes sort of internally normalized. You know, it's, and I never realized it until I was like, I would be telling, you know, stories to non-musician friends, and they would give me this kind of look of horror. And I'm realizing, oh, okay, maybe, maybe this story is not one to share with the normies, you know?

43:24It's so true. It's so true. Yeah, like, I guess it's like thinking about the tour tolerance versus like normal life tolerance is vastly different. It is its own universe, for sure. Also sleep. Like, I just feel like there's a magical thing that happens on tour where you just manage to learn how to not sleep as much. It's just, yeah. Yeah, I, and I think that's part of what adds to the sort of surreal experience of touring is that, you know, you haven't gotten more than two or three hours of sleep in weeks. And that definitely puts you in a different state. And, but it's amazing how resilient your body is. And it's just like, you just keep chugging along somehow. And it's not until after the fact that you look back like, how, how did I do that? You know, but yeah, the sleep thing is definitely a big, big part of it for sure.

44:26I really appreciate when, like, you're, you know, obviously, like, you have, like, beautiful, supportive community. And I'm sure, like, it's like, they know, it's like, they know you've been on tour. So they probably, like, have this experience of like, okay, we know you're a little, like, sleep deprived. So how can we support you? Yeah, I mean, those, those are the times where the crowd really, really lifts us up and saves the day. Because, you know, there are some, you always want to give everything that you have to the audience. And, you know, some, maybe you've played 12 shows every night in a row, and you're exhausted. And those are the times where it's like, you know, it's, if you have the crowd with you, then it's like, okay, I'm going to get through this.

45:15But even if it's like, we played, there've been a couple times in our careers where we've been paired with bands, it just wasn't a good combination for two bands. And I remember this one time that we opened for Fixmer McCarthy over in Berlin. And I'm like, it's kind of a strange combination, but okay, whatever, that's cool. And we went out on stage, and it was all pissed off looking Germans and Knights of Reb t-shirts like, oh, no, and I'm like, oh, this is going to be brutal. And it was, except for right in the front, there was this couple like in their 50s, they were like, old punk rock people, they had like, mohawks, and they were dancing their asses off. And I was just like, those two people are the people who got me through that show.

46:08Because if I could concentrate on them, I didn't have to, you know, notice that everybody else was staring daggers and looking at their watch, like, how much more of the shit do I have to listen to? Gosh, isn't that the truth? Like one person, but two even, can just make all the difference. It can. And, you know, I used to, you know, before I had a lot of experience, I used to be the opposite, where it's like, I could have a whole crowd that was really, really great. And if there was one person who looked like they were having a bad time, I'm like, what's that guy's problem?

46:41And, you know, it would bug me for the whole show. But, you know, you come as you get more experience, you realize that different, not everybody's a dancer. Not everybody's, some people just want to watch and absorb it. And that's kind of how I am when I'm at a show. I just want to listen to it and watch the performance. And, you know, when you have that show where there's the person that you're like, man, what is this guy's problem? He hates us. And then you meet him after the show. He's like, that was one of the best shows I've ever seen. It was so great. And you're like, oh, OK, OK.

47:10I misinterpreted that. You know, I yeah, it's funny how like sometimes like body language and facial expressions you can totally misinterpret. And then like you were saying afterwards, they're like, that was awesome. And you're like, I would not have thought that, but not how I interpreted that at all. No. Oh, it's so cool. Lost Signal is saying that failure tour was absolutely wild. Yeah, it's it seems like yesterday. But, you know, when I stopped to think about how long ago it was, it seems impossible that, you know, I'm still doing the same thing. I never, you know, for as long as it took me to get a record label interested in releasing my music, even once it happened, I thought, you know, I'll probably put out one or two things and then the next thing will come along and, you know, that'll be fine.

48:14And I was, I was fine with that. I was just like, you know, I never thought I'd get it signed to a label. So that's anything else is a bonus. But, you know, here I am all these years later and getting ready in a couple of weeks to go back over to Germany. And it just seems unbelievable. Gosh, what a dream. That's amazing. I love, I love, like, when you have these reflections and sliding doors where you're like, I could have gone down this door, but here I am now. And yeah, I think about that a lot. Like, just, you know, I think there are in everybody's life, there are certain pivotal moments that are responsible for, like, really pushing their life and in a different direction.

49:00And, you know, I've told this story a million times, but, you know, when I really noticed electronic music was the first time that I heard Gary Numan's Cars on the radio. And I think about that moment so much because it literally changed the entire course of my life. And I was like 11 years old. And it was something as simple as just passively hearing something on the radio and thinking, holy shit, what is that? That's so cool. I want to know more about that. I want to make that. And it's terrifying in a way to think, you know, with as simple a thing as that was that has had such a positive impact on my life. Like, God, what if I hadn't heard it? Like, what if things had, you know, my life would have gone in a completely different direction.

49:50And so it's amazing how just singular little moments in your life can really have just monumental impact on who you become as a person and just the path of your life entirely. Gosh, yeah. I was thinking, like, I was like, yeah, what if a different song had come on and it didn't affect you as much or you hadn't been listening to the radio, but that convergence point when you were like, you were meant to hear it at that time. Yeah, yeah. It just, I don't know. It's funny. I think about that a lot, though. It's like there are small moments that, you know, you realize later in life were not small at all. They were pivotal.

50:29Absolutely. Yeah. I like to think about that in terms of the people, like, too, that we get to encounter and interweave with. And yeah, it's just having to be at the right place at the right time when we get to weave with them. Yeah, for real. Definitely. Yeah. So Last Signal is asking, when someone outside of this world asks to hear your music, what song or release do you tell them to start with? I usually don't really point them in a direction necessarily. I mean, if somebody asks me, I guess I would usually refer them to whatever I've done most recently, because that's usually the thing I'm least sick of at that point.

51:20Yeah, most of the time, like, you know, there were people at work who, when they found out I was in a band and stuff like that, asked, and I would just send them the Bandcamp page and let them kind of discover it on your own. But, you know, it's hard without knowing what a person's musical tastes are to know what's the right thing to kind of send them. Like we, Assemblage 23, for some reason, has a big metal crossover audience. Like so many of the people that we met were like metalheads. And then they got into this music because it was, you know, it shares some DNA in there.

52:04It's different instrumentation, but, you know, dark kind of aggressive music. And I never would have expected that at all. So I usually just let people kind of figure it out on their own and, you know, hopefully they find something that they like. If not, oh, well, that's life. Yeah. Yeah, that is kind of, it's like you just have to show them the doorway and then just be like, yes, go have your adventure. Yeah. So in terms of your upcoming tour, what kind of things are you doing to get ready for it? Are you doing anything? Do you feel like you already have like everything like kind of ready to go?

52:49I'm kind of, we're doing a song that we haven't played live before. Um, so that is the biggest part of getting ready for me right now is, is just making, um, just learning that song so that I feel confident about it. Um, but yeah, it's not as, um, it's not the same experience it was, you know, 15, 20 years ago. I, I, I would be much more stressed, um, about the impending shows that I am now, just because I've been through it and you, you learn, as I'm sure you've, you've found, like you learn what works and what doesn't, and you kind of develop what your methodology is for preparing and touring. And, um, you know, for me, it's, it's just, it's making sure that I can, um, be comfortable and, um, you know, hopefully get a decent amount of rest or maximize the amount of rest that I do get, uh,

53:46and staying healthy and that kind of thing. I mean, it's not, it's not super rock and roll, but like if you get sick, um, when you're on tour, that doesn't do anybody any good. And, you know, worst case scenario, you've got to, um, cancel a show and that's, you really don't want to do that when you're going overseas to, to do it. But, um, I was talking with Paul, my keyboard player the other night, and, um, this hasn't started for me, but, uh, we always always get anxiety dreams before the tour starts. And, and for me, there, there's two sort of archetypes of this dream that I usually have. Um, one of which is, um, it's 10 minutes to go on stage. And I realized that I hadn't learned a song that we put in the set. And the other one is that I'm in an airport and I'm trying to get to my gate, but the airport is like this impossible labyrinth. And I can't, you know, I'm just constantly

54:46running, trying to get to this place. Uh, but so Paul was saying that he, he started having his, uh, his tour anxiety dreams, but I haven't had one yet, but, uh, I'm sure it's on, on its way. Oh man, I, I definitely relate to that for sure. Yeah. It's, it's, it's amazing how those little mind monkeys will, will play all those tricks on you. Well, especially touring, cause you're just juggling so many things and, you know, logistics and cause it's not just, like showing up and playing your music. It's, there's a lot of details. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, we, when we tour in, um, in Europe, we, you know, we've got a tour manager over there. And so all that stuff is kind of handled. And, um, you know, in the U S I always did all that stuff myself and what a world of difference between the two experiences it is, you know, it's, it's so

55:45nice to know somebody else is taking care of all the details and they just have to point you in the right direction. But it's, um, it's much more frustrating when everything is resting on you and you have to keep, you know, you're tired and you have a show coming up, but you also have to get all these contract details sorted out. And, uh, so definitely two very different touring experiences. Um, when you first started touring Europe, was it like a shift for you, um, from touring in the U S? Um, or did you find that you kind of just had similar mindset, um, to be able to handle touring in, in both in different countries?

56:23Um, you know, I mean, it was, it was different even than it is now in that, um, when our first tour over there, um, was before the European Union even existed. So like you had to get all the different kinds of currency for every country that you were going into. And, um, I had never, you know, outside of going to Canada, I had never even been outside the country before. So it was, you know, a lot of, just a lot of new experiences kind of, um, all at once, but the difference isn't quite as much these days as, as it was back then. But, you know, there was a pretty stark difference back then between

57:05the types of venues, the quality of the venues there versus a lot of the venues that we were playing in the States, which were like metal or punk clubs and that sort of thing. Now I think the U.S. has kind of caught up to that and, um, it's more of an even playing field when it comes to that sort of thing. But, um, and you know, there, there's also kind of the, some of the cultural differences too, like audiences in different countries react in different ways. And, um, some are more reserved, like, um, sometimes German audiences can be more reserved. They can be wild too, but, um,

57:44but you go to say Russia or something like that. And people are just absolutely bonkers. You know, I mean, everybody is just wasted and there to have a good time. And it's, that's one of those audiences that you don't have to warm up. It's like, they're, they're ready to go. So, um, yeah, it was, you know, it was just a really big learning experience and, um, it's, it was really kind of a trial by fire too, because it was a pretty grueling schedule. We had, I think we had a string of 14 shows in a row with no breaks. And which is from a business standpoint is that's what you want because

58:20every day that you're not playing a show, you're, you're losing money. Um, and, but I mean, there's limits, uh, to, to what your, especially your voice can put up with, um, for that long, especially when you're on a, you're crammed on a bus with 15 people and they're smoking nasty German cigarettes. And it's, uh, it becomes a challenge just to, to keep going. But, um, I definitely couldn't do that nowadays for sure. I don't know how I did it then. I was going to say, I actually ask you like, um, are there things that you, um, that you do to help your voice? Like if you're starting to feel it like,

59:01oh, like, oh, I'm feeling a little hoarse or starting to feel a little under the weather. Like, are there things that help you? Yeah. I mean, uh, there was, um, there's a while where I had, they have these kinds of herbal throat sprays that you can use that I would find would, would sometimes help. Um, but it's, it's mostly, it's just being, it's just being sensible. You know, it's like, you can't, um, you need to make sure, for instance, like your monitoring situation is great. Like one of the things that I, I learned the hard way was, um, that if you can, if you can't

59:39hear yourself well enough through the monitors, you have a tendency to over-sing so that you can And that's when you tend to blow out your voice and cause trouble. So, you know, something as simple as making sure that you can hear yourself can make a difference. But also, you know, not, you know, drinking a handle of booze every single night and, you know, getting rest and trying to eat semi-healthy, which is never very easy on the road. But like, you know, eat a piece of fruit now and then in between all the beef jerky and Pringles and it can it can go a long way.

1:00:22I think that's actually really solid, solid advice. I think you kind of just have to do the best that you can. Yes. You have to learn your voice, too. You know, I mean, there's, you know, when I lose my voice, sometimes I'll either lose the high end or I'll lose the low end. And, you know, over the years, I found some ways that I can kind of draw the voice from a different part. I don't know how to really describe it, but like you kind of situate your voice in your throat a little bit differently. And sometimes you can, you know, you can power through a show without sounding completely awful.

1:01:01But at some point, you just have to get rest and take care of yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, Star Moonshine. Star Moonshine is saying, do your set lists on tour differ between American and European shows? And says, hey, Uncle, Sarah from Tampa. Hey, Sarah. They don't, I wouldn't say that they differ too much. Also, you know, by this point of having, you know, put music out for 26 years plus, we have a lot of songs that if we don't play them, we're going to hear about it the next day. So there's kind of some degree of expectation from the audience. You know, it's, nobody likes when you go to see a band and they're like,

1:01:55they're like, we're only going to play new stuff. None of the hits you want to hear. It's like, everybody hates that. So, you know, I'm conscious of that, what I like in a show when I go to see a band. And so, you know, we try to play the songs that we know that the fans want to hear and will react to. And of course, when you're touring with a new album or a new single or something like that, it's kind of an experiment. It's kind of testing to see, okay, is this going to be one of those songs that we're playing still 20 years from now?

1:02:31Or is this one that gets dropped on the next tour? Because I'm generally pretty good about having a feel for what songs are going to be the ones that people connect to. But people surprise me all the time, too, where they'll latch onto a song and be like, really? It's like, I don't even like that one that much. Yeah, it is always so interesting, like how people will, yeah, have to have their connections with certain ones. And you just never know. Yeah, and that goes back to what I was saying about it being kind of a collaborative process. It's like, you're like, all right, here's a bunch of songs.

1:03:10And it's like, you don't get to dictate what are the ones that people are going to connect to. And sometimes that can be surprising. Do you ever try out new songs that haven't been released yet live? Or do you always make sure to perform songs that have already been released? Yeah, we do that from time to time. For instance, before the last album came out, we were playing Gone probably six or seven months before the album came out. I don't like to do it too much because, for one thing, I really like there to be some suspense when an album comes out. I really like it when an album comes out for it to kind of be a surprise the first time that I sit down and I listen to it.

1:04:06And, of course, now everybody's got phones and stuff like that. So if you play a song live on stage, it's going to be on the Internet, you know. And the other reason is that it does have a tendency to kind of lower the energy level. It kind of upsets the pace if you're doing it in the middle of the set. And it's not necessarily a reflection on how people feel about the song. They just don't know it. And so they're just kind of trying to absorb it. But I do find that it kind of tends to cause a little bit of a lull that then you have to recover from and get people going again.

1:04:46So it can be fun to kind of test things out, but I haven't found it to be a very accurate way of deciding. I think the best way is when people have gotten to listen to an album or to your songs for a couple times to kind of get a connection with them. And then it's a much more fun experience to perform. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, do you have an idea yet of your full set that's coming up? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it's Paul and I and Mike, when we have him, we have never rehearsed together, which is sometimes evident.

1:05:31But most of the time, we just rehearse on our own to, you know, a copy of the set list. So those are always prepared in advance so that everybody's got time to get comfortable with the set. And if there's any pacing problems or something like that, sometimes, you know, after you've gone through it a couple of times, you're like, maybe I'll switch these two songs. But yeah, we always it's it's so funny to me. A lot of times you'll be at shows and people will just shout out titles of songs they want to hear. And it's like, well, it doesn't always work with electronic music.

1:06:10It's like it's kind of it's kind of predetermined, but it's not quite the same experience of, you know, if I Bob Dylan up there with an acoustic guitar and nothing else to worry about. It's kind of like a play, like there's a set there's set acts in a play. I can't imagine if someone went to like Romeo and Juliet and people being like, hey, can you do some Hamlet? Yeah, right. Yeah. Do the Scottish play. Yeah, it's and you know, I guess the other reason that you can't do that, aside from just the practicality of it, is there really is a logic to the way that you structure a set list.

1:06:52And just playing songs willy nilly can really upset that and kind of divert the flow of the show, I think. So I think there's good reasons for taking time to come up with a set list and certainly be open to switching things out if they need to be. But it's better to put some thought into it that you're going to have a better show if you think about how the songs flow from one another and how the overall flow of the set feels from an energy standpoint. Absolutely. Is that kind of like the approach when you're thinking about it? It's like feeling the flow and the pacing?

1:07:35Yeah, I usually, you know, you want to start off with something that is going to get people really kind of pumped up. And usually about halfway through the set is where I'll find a space for the ballad, you know, because the problem with just playing kind of like unrelenting, pounding dance music all in a row is after four or five times, it kind of loses the impact a little bit. So throwing something softer or less aggressive in the middle there kind of is like a palate cleanser almost. It kind of resets people's ears. And, you know, if I'm honest, it also gives me a chance to catch my breath in the middle of the set from the more high energy numbers.

1:08:20And then, you know, kind of the standard practice is you kind of load the end of the set with the stuff that people really, have that connection to. So you want it to kind of be a ramp, an upwards ramp. And, you know, maybe there's a couple little notches in there, but in the end, you want that trajectory to be kind of always going upwards until you hopefully end on a really high note. Have you ever found, like on a tour, like your intention for a set, like where you're like, oh, there are certain things where it's not landing the way I thought, and then you have to shift it?

1:08:59Yeah, or there's songs that are harder to do live, like, you know, something, if there's something that, like a really high energy song with a really low vocal, it's tough to do because a low vocal takes more breath and more effort to put out. And if you're already expending breath from, like, running around on stage and stuff like that, your voice suffers a little bit unless you're a phenomenal vocalist. So, yeah, you realize there's some practicalities with how you have to perform some songs. There's, you know, so if there's a song like that, it's like, OK, we're going to do that song, but I'm just going to park behind the mic for this one versus, you know, moving around on stage a lot because it's just that's the practicality.

1:09:48If it's going to sound good, this is how it has to happen. And so there's there's just a lot of experimentation. But, you know, when there's songs that you've been playing for 20 years or whatever, you have a pretty good feeling where they fit and where they don't. So it's really just a matter of figuring out where the new material fits in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, I feel like it's like one of the things like that we've been talking about is just I think the experience definitely probably helps like really lend itself to, you know, making things revealed to you where you're like, OK, this is how you do the thing.

1:10:27And, you know, now I see that this is a song that people really like to listen to live, you know. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, there's no substitute for experience. And man, I wish I could go back 25 years and like share with my younger self all these things that would have made touring life so much easier. And but at the end of the day, most of those are things that you have to learn yourself through doing it and experiencing it. And everybody's going to have a different idea of what makes a comfortable touring experience or a performing experience. And it's just a matter of figuring that out for yourself and applying it.

1:11:10Fleshfield, by the way, says Tom still looks the same as he did 25 years ago. What is his secret? Moisturizer. It's important to stay very moist. I've always said that. There you have it. Oh, yes. I'm seeing like chats of sunscreen as well. Yes. Yeah, that's probably the biggest secret is just holding yourself up in the basement studio all day and avoiding the sun like a vampire. Yes, yes. Be in the cave. That's right. That's right. Speaking of creative caves, are you like planning anything in the works coming up next year? I've been, currently I've been doing a lot of remix work and I'm kind of in that stage of, generally the way I work is I just kind of sketch out ideas as they come to me and then I revisit it when I have a whole bunch of them and kind of decide what I think has potential to be developed into something good and then I develop the songs from there.

1:12:29So I'm still just kind of in the gathering stage with that. You know, one thing that I'm really, I think about a lot is, you know, as bands have been around for a long time and stuff like that, the albums start to become less good, you know, the song quality sometimes just isn't in the great and I don't want to do that. I mean, again, that's what makes a good song is subjective. So some people may say, oh, you passed that way a long time ago. But I don't want to keep putting out music just for the sake of putting it out. Like, I want to feel like these are good songs. These are worth being released. Not just like, oh, well, I better put something out just because.

1:13:17And, you know, there may come a day where I'm just like, yeah, none of the stuff I really feel is up there to be shared and I won't share it. You know, I don't want to. I don't want to. There's no point in putting out something that you don't believe in. You know, it's there's certain aspects of making music that can quickly become feeling like a job. And I think it's best to minimize those kind of feelings because music should be something that should be an escape from your job. It should be something that's joyous and fun. And, you know, there's always business stuff that you're going to have to deal with and stuff like that. But, you know, if it starts to become a chore, what's the point of doing it?

1:14:07Yeah, absolutely. I like how you use the phrase like you're in gathering mode and it sounds very inspiring. Like that sounds like you really are based in inspiration, you know? Yeah, you know, it's even all these years later, I still go through this process after I finish an album where it's like, well, that's probably it. The well is probably dry at this point. I'm never going to be able to, you know, think of another idea or whatever. And somehow it always works itself out. But, you know, it becomes more difficult, too, the longer you've been doing music because you don't want to, you know, literally repeat yourself.

1:14:56And it becomes more of a challenge of like, oh, I really need a good melodic hook in this song or something like that. But it's like you don't want to do something that you've done before. You have to find another way to solve that same problem. So it does become a bit more challenging as time goes on. But if you enjoy the process, then who cares? You know, it's it's just means you get to do more of what you enjoy. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was I was wondering, like, you know, in between albums and in between tours, like, are there ways that you refill the proverbial well?

1:15:36Like, you know, like what are ways that you do that? Yeah, I mean, that's that's an important thing that I don't think it's emphasized with creative people enough. And I always like the idea of creativity as kind of being a bucket that, you know, you fill it by consuming art by, you know, listening to stuff or seeing a film or going to a museum and looking at sculptures or paintings. And, you know, then when you're in the process of making the music, that bucket gets depleted. And so it's important to remember to refill that bucket and and find things that can inspire you. And, you know, that's another thing that becomes more difficult as as you get older.

1:16:25Like, I I feel like my life as a music fan has been like, you know, they have that saying about heroin addicts, that they're chasing the dragon. You know, that first time that they do it, it's the most amazing feeling. It never feels that way again, but they're constantly chasing that feeling. And, you know, at 54 years old, I am still chasing that feeling of the first time I heard New Order and the hairs on the back of my neck, you know, but it becomes harder to do it because you've heard more music and you've absorbed more and it's not as new or as revolutionary and it never will be.

1:17:06So, you know, I find that sometimes there's kind of cross-pollination with inspiration. So, you know, it's I do find it somewhat harder to find music that really rocks my world all these years later. So maybe I'll read a book or look at poetry or something like that or like a film or something like that. And just try and I don't know how to explain it in a way that how it benefits you as a musician to see a great film or something like that. But it really does kind of appeal to that same part of your brain and can stimulate something that, you know, whether it's lyrical topics or whether you hear something in the score that's interesting or a sound design idea or something like.

1:18:00Inspiration is literally everywhere. You just have to be tuned in to look for it. But you're right. It's absolutely crucial that you keep refilling yourself creatively because inspiration is really half of the equation at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely. I definitely like think about sort of the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. So it's like you can't quite put your finger on like, gosh, watching this film like ended up inspiring me, but it somehow ends up like, yeah, providing that inspiration or spark or whatever that I think then when you put something out, I think maybe it's because other artists and creatives are also have that spark.

1:18:47So it's like it's carrying the torch forward, you know, in a way. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, you know, and what I was saying before about how like musicians are kind of have this shared experience. I think that's true on a larger scale for just creative people. It's very hard for me to imagine not having a creative outlet of some sort. It doesn't compute for me. But I know that that's really for most people, that's their that's their experience from day to day. It's very hard for me to conceive of that. And I'm sure it's equally hard for somebody who doesn't have that drive to understand what that's like, you know, that it's not it's not a I'm going to make this music because I like making music.

1:19:32Of course, I do. But it's I make this music because I have to, because there's something in me that has to I have to get out and I have to express and I don't feel right. If I you know, if that's one of the things that kind of throws me off on tour sometimes is that I'm out of the studio for that time. And even just not having the time to kind of sit down at a synth and just kind of noodle on it for a little while, that's as consequential my day as eating a meal. You know, it's just part of my experience. And people who don't have that, I'm sure, have something that's equivalent.

1:20:16But it's very hard for me to, it sounds like a miserable existence for me to not have that kind of outlet, you know. I was curious, actually, on tour, like, are you able to, like, get any ideas or do you feel like it's just sort of more like output? Like, it's the expression, it's the output, which is, you know, very different than, you know, being in the studio. Yeah, I mean, you know, of course, I always have my laptop with me and I can play around with ideas and stuff if I have the time or the inclination to do that. But I find that part of the creative process for me is really location dependent.

1:21:02Like, having an area that is dedicated to creating seems to be part of it for me. So, even if I have, you know, a full day off and nothing else to do and I just got a bunch of plug-ins in my laptop, it's not, I know that I might futz around a little bit. I might come up with a good idea, but I'm not going to be as productive as I am when I'm in my studio. And I know it's purely a psychological thing, but it is something that I, we were talking earlier about how, as creative people, we have to fight our own worst tendencies that kind of prevent us from getting stuff done.

1:21:42And I found, like, having a dedicated place to work on your stuff is good. And I even, I've got a little neon sign that's just the logo, and I started just turning it on any time that I sat down to write music. And it's like a little ritual, and it's like a little kind of Pavlovian psychological thing, but it's like, it puts my brain in that mode of like, okay, time to make stuff. And it sounds silly, but like, I think, you know, creative people try it. Come up with some little ritual that you carry out at any time that you, you know, maybe you got a shirt that you wear when you're going to write a song or something like that.

1:22:21It can be something really simple, but it does really help me to kind of focus and get into that, shift mindsets from like, ordinary everyday stuff to working on music. I love that. That's, that's absolutely like, I think having like, I love the idea of the dedicated workspace and the rituals that you, you know, can create for yourself. Because then it's just sort of like, it's also a declaration like, this is my time to create now, you know. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, nobody has as much time as they as they want. So, you know, time is a really valuable resource and anything you can do to help you make better use of that time is worthwhile, I think.

1:23:02Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again to friends in the chat. If y'all have any other questions, please feel free to drop them in the chat. This has been awesome to get to hang out with everyone and hear everyone's like experiences of Tom as well. So, but yes, if you have any questions, please feel free to drop in the chat. Yeah, I, for me, it's a candle. It's not a neon sign, but it's candle, but it's, it's the same, I guess, intention, sort of. I think stuff like that is probably hard for people who don't do creative stuff to understand, but it, like I said, it seems silly, but it works for me, and as musicians, that's something I think we're all, especially, because nothing feels worse than when you, you know, you just have a creative block or something like that, and you feel stuck in the water.

1:23:59So, any kind of ways that you can find your way out of that is worthwhile. How have you navigated creative blocks, if you don't mind sharing? So, my motto with that has always kind of been, always be productive, right? So, that can mean a lot of different things. So, everybody has the experience of they're working on a song, and it's like, they just hit a dead end. It's like, nothing you do is working. And so, you know that there's the seeds of a good song in here, but you're just getting from A to B is proving difficult. So, during that time, I'll be like, all right, I'm going to make some drum sounds that I can use later.

1:24:47Or, program some synth patches. Or, I'm going to inventory my merchandise to make sure that my inventory is, you know. So, I'm doing something still towards the musical goal, even if it is not working on that particular song. The second thing that I do for stuff like that is, I usually am working on at least two or three songs at the same time. You know, in various degrees of being finished. And that way, if one song is giving me trouble, I can just shift gears into another song and still be working towards my goal. And then the third and probably simplest thing that I've found is related to what I was saying about having that dedicated working space.

1:25:41They always say that, like in regards to sleep, if you're having trouble sleeping, if you don't fall asleep after an hour, you should get up and do something else until you're tired and go back to bed. And the reason for that is your brain starts to associate your bed with being awake and not being able to sleep. And that can cause it to be more problematic. So if I find myself having trouble with a song or something like that, and it's really giving me trouble, it's like, OK, I'm going to go for a walk or I'm going to take a shower or I'm going to watch a TV show or something like that.

1:26:15I remove myself from that creative space because I don't want my brain to start associating that with constantly struggling. And a lot of times that's all it takes. You know, like almost always the solution to me comes when I'm not in the studio. If I'm having a problem that runs in the studio, it'll be like I'll be at work and I'll think of it or I'll be in the shower or something and it'll be like, ah, OK, yep, I'm going to try that. I think that's how I get out of this problem I'm having. And, you know, your mileage may vary. Everybody has to figure out what motivates them the most.

1:26:54But I think the worst thing you can do is just go, ah, crap. What am I going to do? And just like keep trying to force it because nothing good comes out of forced creativity. Like it's something that has to happen organically and naturally, because I think the results speak for themselves. When you don't, I think it's very evident and it just tends to miss more than it hits. So it's good to know what things motivate you and what things help you get unstuck when you're stuck. But there's a lot of different ways that you can do that. It's just a matter of finding the one that works for you.

1:27:34Gosh, I was thinking, I was like, it'd be so interesting to if, I mean, if you were a fly on the wall in the studio and see a montage of like, oh, this section, you took a walk and then you came back. And then you came up with this part. Yeah, you would hear a lot of profanity in that time, too. So hopefully you're not an easily offended fly. No, it'd be a very open-minded fly. But, you know, that's such an interesting thing, the way that songs develop, you know, because there are a lot of really iconic songs started, you know, both Blue Monday, and Enjoy the Silence were originally ballads.

1:28:21They were originally slow songs. And it just came, as a matter of fact, I'm reading Peter Hook's book about Joy Division right now. And, you know, I've always considered myself to be a big Joy Division fan, but I never knew that they had, there was an aborted album that they had originally recorded for RCA Records. And this was before they had met Martin Hannett, so it was just some punk producer or whatever. And they're all songs that eventually got released with Martin Hannett's production, but oh my god, it sounds so different. And it's, they do a version of Transmission, which is, we all know, is a pretty fast-paced song.

1:29:02But it's maybe 20 or 30 beats per minute slower than the original, and it sounds awful. It's like, the song, you can feel the song wants to be fast. So it's interesting to see how, there's a really great documentary about Metallica called Some Kind of Monster. Have you ever seen that before? No, I haven't. I forget which album it was, but it's basically about the making of this one album and the process that they go through. And, I mean, the main takeaway from that is like, oh my god, these millionaires are all such babies. And, you know, dudes who are like at the top of their game or whatever, like they literally have a therapist that is with them at all times because, you know, they're so dysfunctional.

1:29:54But one of the really interesting things is that you see the development of these songs that would eventually become on the album from kind of the inception of somebody's got a riff that they think is interesting. And then you hear how the song changes from that initial idea. And it's it's always so interesting to to see that process. And I would love to see more kind of documentaries like that where you get what I mean, it's hard to do because I mean, for me, at least the creative process is a very personal and private kind of experience. So I don't know if I could work under conditions like that. But yeah, I would love to see just the genesis of a song from the very start and the way that it evolves into to what we hear in the end, because.

1:30:45Very few songs start and you start creating them and they end up in the exact way that you started, there's there's always a journey kind of in that process of putting together where things change. Yeah, definitely. I find it really fascinating myself, like just I didn't realize that Enjoy the Silence was originally a ballad. And yeah, gosh, that's so cool. Yeah, it's like each song carries its own story of its own beginnings and then navigating into what it ends up becoming when it gets out into the world. Yeah, they really they kind of have a life of their own in a way, you know, I mean, they.

1:31:24The songs grow up in the same way that kind of human beings do in a way. Yeah, gosh, it's true. I feel I really do feel like songs are like their own little entities and, you know, little beings, you know, and they have their little energies. For sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Fleshfield says, Tom's still teaching me with his good advice. Oh, and Michael is saying, was it Saint Anger? I'm not sure. I think it might have been. Yeah, it's one of the more recent albums, but it's a really well done documentary, but it did not make Metallica look very good in the end.

1:32:10It's like they really just seem like a bunch of babies, you know, like it's not very metal. I'll say that much. I didn't realize I need to watch this. I love Metalocalypse. Oh, yeah. I was like, oh, maybe that's where they got that from. I really I really like documentaries or autobiographies from from bands and musicians just because and even if it's not somebody that I'm necessarily a fan of, but like you just start to notice patterns of like, OK, yeah, this band is a legendary, iconic band, but they went through the exact same experiences that everybody has if they tour for long enough, you know.

1:32:56And so there is a sense of there's that sense of community, again, with other musicians. It's like, OK, I mean, yes, you sell about 300 million more records than I do. But, you know, we both had that type of show before dealt with a certain promoter or whatever that is just kind of a universal experience. Absolutely. Yeah, there's absolutely that shared camaraderie, you know, for sure. Oh, Star Moonshine is asking, considering that you've been all over the place, have you experienced something weird or spooky? Weird or spooky? I mean, we've certainly played in some venues that seemed haunted. There's a place that we played in Tucson that's still around. It's a great place called the Surly Wench.

1:33:53And there's no real green room there, so they kind of put you in the basement. And everybody kind of agreed. It's like, yeah, this place is 100% haunted. And sure enough, I guess we talked to some people who work there that said that, you know, some weird stuff has happened there before. But I guess the other one that comes to mind is there's a there was a club in Detroit. I'm not sure if it still exists or not, but it's called the City Club. And it's in the basement of this old hotel. And it was like like 1930s kind of art deco building that was probably absolutely gorgeous in its time.

1:34:36But it's, you know, fallen into disrepair and the rooms are all kind of beat up and stuff like that. And there was definitely a feel to that place. In fact, I think Rotor Sand even did a song called like Room 23 or something like that. That was about when they stayed there, they had they just got a weird vibe from the place. But I've talked to several people who have stayed there before mentioning is like, yeah, what was that place had a real weird feeling to it. Interesting. Yeah, that'd be very cool to visit. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's it's I think that's part of the fun of being on tour, too.

1:35:15It's just like all the different and you're saying the camaraderie where people are like, did you stay at that one place? That was very, very strange. And yeah, yeah, yeah, there's there's so much so much weird stuff and strange experiences you have. You know, a lot of times it's because you're up at like three or four in the morning where only other weirdos are awake. But yeah, we've had some bizarre experiences for sure. Yeah. Well, dear friends, if there's any last minute questions, please feel free to drop in the chats. Tom, any parting like wisdoms, inspirations, thoughts that you'd like to share with us? Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed our discussion.

1:36:02I hope that if anybody is watching this in Germany or Sweden, that we'll see you in a couple weeks. We do have one more U.S. show that is going to be announced very soon. So a little bit late in the game, but there is another announcement coming. So stay tuned for that. And just thanks for listening. For me, making music is its own reward, but getting to see what it means to other people and them sharing their experiences and getting to travel and meet people all around the world is really another at another level. And I couldn't do that if it wasn't for the people out there listening.

1:36:46Tom, you really have brought just amazing music, your amazing self to the world, and we're so grateful for you. Thank you for taking the time to chat with all of us and to share your wisdoms and your inspirations. It's such a joy, like really. Yeah. And, oh, let's see. Deebo Weathers says, got to be careful with haunted sites. The juju can stick and follow you. Yes. I mean, in some of these venues that we've stayed at, juju sticking to me is the least thing I'm worried about sticking to me compared to things in some of these green rooms. That's fair. That is fair. That's true.

1:37:32And Dusty Chalk says, thanks for doing this, Tom and Tash. I really enjoyed hearing Tom's positivity. Plus, I really love seeing him live as many times as I have. Star Moonshine saying, thanks a bunch, Tom. We appreciate you and your work very much. Yes. It's such beautiful work. And you're so giving, like being willing to share with all of us. Like your processes and all. I mean, I think it's one thing to create the music and share it out. And that's amazing. But to sit down and be willing to share yourself is a gift. So thank you again. The pleasure was mine. Thanks so much.

1:38:11Yeah. Well, dear friends, this is it for the season for Unwritten Rules of the Road. I want to thank you all so much for being on this journey with us. It's been such an incredible joy and privilege to be able to interact with these incredible artists and promoters and menu owners and just everybody in this community. And you guys have all supported this. So thank you so much. We're looking forward to next season. And we'll announce that when it's time. But in the meantime, wishing you all beautiful fall and rest of the year and just sending much love out in the world.