Donna Lynch & Steven Archer / Ego Likeness, in full

0:23Hey, hey, hey. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Hi friends. Uh this is Tash Cox. We are um Unwritten Rules of the Road. Um today we have um incredible special friends uh guests um Donna Lynch and Stephen Archer of um many many projects. Um I originally met y'all um in Eagle Likeness um when Mankind is Obsolete opened for you in New York. Um yeah but um there you have many incarnations of all of your artistic expressions. So um we will start with with ego likeness. of of ego likeness. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. Um really excited to

4:40get to chat and reconvene. Um last time I saw you uh actually you were playing a show here in LA um at the compound. Um it was a little bit ago. Yeah. Pre pre- pandemic. So yeah. Yeah. Um complex compound complex. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yes. in Glendale. Yeah. I miss that place so much. I do too. Great venue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. John still does shows, but unfortunately he doesn't have his own venue this time. So, um yeah, he had Stone Stone Burner out um few years back. Couple years back. Nice. But yeah, we trying to figure out um a good fit for us out there as ego likeness. So

5:24hopefully we'll find something. But complex was such a great great venue. Yeah, it was so cool because they actually grew their own herbs in the in the in the backyard. So, they would use their herbs and stuff for their drinks, which I thought was was really sweet. So, and they had that Game of Thrones toilet. And more importantly, they had really nice toilet paper, which was just always a good thing when you're on tour. This is very true. This is very true. The toilets on tour make such a difference, right? They really do. It's not something you think about a whole lot, but yeah. Yeah.

5:56Scott actually had started a series of uh bathrooms across America. There's some more memorable ones. I will say it's shocking how much you learn about bathrooms and rest areas. And it's like, you know, all the years of us doing this, like I can tell you where all the good rest stops are and where the ones to avoid. And I have a really weird um like like gauge of like what's a good one and what isn't. Like we it's like sometimes it's just a vibe. It's like we'll be driving and we'll have to stop and it'll be no no not that one. We don't like that one. Well, what's wrong

6:36with that one? I don't know. The vibe isn't good there. There's always something about it that's just doesn't make it as desirable as the other ones. So, you know, you know, the general rule is women's bathroom before the show, four doors open, uh, except for the one place that we played, uh, where you would go, you do your thing, you flush it, and the water shoots out of the holes that the, uh, the the lid attaches to on the toilet. And I'm not even sure how that works. Like, like I I don't, you know, anatomically speaking, I don't know how the plumbing would do that.

7:10Well, you weren't in the room with me. I mean, we've done a lot we've done a lot of things that we went to the bathroom together on the same day. Yeah, we did a lot a lot of stuff together over the years, but this particular time it was just me. I could do it by myself. Yeah. No, I'm just I I feel like you would have told me that story. So, I'm trying to remember where it was. It was It was easily 15 years ago. Okay, I believe you. So, sounds made up, but So, do you like what would make a good a good rest stop actually if they I like

7:43the wooded ones like that are like along the highway and they're sort of in the woods, but you know, they usually don't have anything but vending. So, if you stop at those, you can't, you know, you don't have a lot of variety for food or beverage, but it those are the nicest ones to stop and just rest and get out and walk around at or just sleep at. Yeah. Yeah. You're not supposed to, but sometimes you have to. Um, yeah. But then otherwise, if we want food, then it's, you know, it's a little bit different. Depends on what everybody's looking for. But yeah, the wooded ones are my favorite ones. But

8:19now, now we're safe because we we we actually have a portable toilet that we keep in the back of the van just in case like Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah. Well, it's one of those things where it's like you you there are certain tracks where stretches where there's nothing for hours. Yeah. So, we just got one of the like a foldable camp toilet and you know it comes with the trash bags and everything, but then we got a tall narrow tent that you can just like pop up really fast. So, it was like we just have our own little like portaot and which is good because it saves everybody

8:53from all having to stand there with towels, you know, by the Yes. Yep. Yep. Oh, that's that's a brilliant brilliant idea. And it takes up like no space at all. So that's a if if other it's just a nice piece of peace of mind. Yeah. If other travelers and touring men's are listening um you should definitely invest in it because yeah it really of course for guys the Gatorade Gatorade the Gatorade you know. Well we all know those long treks though where there's like no bushes it's broad daylight and yeah and there's nothing for many many I'm just you know no not kidding. It is very easy to get

9:32like a UTI or or something on tour and and it's like hahaha very funny until you really do have to piss and it's not going to work out. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Well, um I know you guys have a tour coming up. Are you going to be touring as a full band? And if so, like what kind of vehicle are you are you touring in? Um yeah, it's the four of us. It's uh Stephen and myself and Mike and Rick. And we tore in a minivan. Um, you know, every 20 years worth everything um breaks down. Were But you were you doing that too at one point or

10:14um we started off in a the very first tour was like an SUV with all of us like crammed like this. Yeah. And then we um we moved into a 15 passenger van, six of us. Okay. Okay. I thought some reason I was thinking that at one point you had, but maybe um yeah, I don't know why I thought that. But yeah, the minivan's great. It's I mean, it's certainly jam-packed in there. But you know what, though? We can fit all the lights, all the merch, personal stuff, you know, gear, everything in there. The guys have their own separate seats because it's not a bench seat. So, you know, there is

10:50everybody does have a little bit of their own bubble of space in it. and gas mileage is good and you know and it's good because like you you you really are aware of what you're bringing and and how to make it as efficient as possible you know so that's that's also very good and like with with you know product or whatever you can just have it drop shipped to wherever you need to be so you don't have to worry about that too much and it's unassuming it doesn't look like there's a band vehicle yeah it's not big white band saying you know open me for good

11:21free stuff Yes, there is that. Yeah. No, I mean it's interesting. I mean, do you feel like you've kind of got everything dialed in with your packing? Because that's something I'm still to this day where I'm like, "Oh, I didn't need to bring that many shirts." Um Oh, yeah. Work in progress. I overpack clothing wise, but I do keep the um the suitcase sizes to a minimum. So, it's if it can't fit, it can't fit. But um I don't know. I think I've gotten better and better. You get you get you get a piece of luggage like of all of us. You get like an actual piece of

11:56luggage. The three of us have backpacks. Um you know, and I've got like I have three bags. Bags. Yeah, I have three bags. I have one with clothing in it. I've got my machines in one. And then I've got a personal bag for like art stuff. But um yeah, I mean I think we we all know everybody we work with has been doing it forever. So, like there's no like illusion that they're going to be comfortable in a meaningful way. You know, it's comfort comfort within limits. I feel like you might relate to me on this though. The biggest problem is the boots and the and shoes and

12:33things like that cuz you know they're big and if I put them in the suitcase that goes all of my space in the suitcase for everything. So, it's like trashed everywhere like hidden. And for any guys watching, it took me a long time to understand how this works. But the shoes complete the outfit. That's the reason for the different things. Like you I think in the goth industrial scene, you don't have to explain that to any dudes. Oh, you know what? Well, I mean, I've been long enough time and I got to explain it to me. So, I'm assuming there's other guys out there that are a little bit

13:08less, you know, concerned with the whole thing and, you know. Yeah. So, I had to Yeah. I mean, I don't understand. But but I guess for for I also don't really care about it's a shirt. Okay, I'll wear it. Pants. What? Cool. It's black. I'm cool. Right. Let's go. I have one pair of boots that I go through every year and a half. Yeah. I I I feel like there is definitely an art to the Tetrising. Um Gordon, our bass player, is is the master at figuring out like the placement of all the things. So I'm I'm very big on um I I have this this belief that

13:48artists are by nature lazy and um so I have spent a lot of time figuring out like I built boxes that all of our lights go in. So like we've got four mover lights sitting on either side of the front that are on a piece of wood. Lid goes on top. Clamp it up. All this is one power cord to plug in. So like everything I can all the lights are in boxes. All the boxes have one power cable that plugs into wherever. That's Um so like anything that I can put in a box like that or you know build a a foam foam out a a case or whatever so I can

14:30just make it as square as possible. That goes a long way to helping stuff. Uh and also we live in the future, you know, so take advantage of that. You know, there's lots of little tech tricks that you can do now that you couldn't have done 20 years ago, 10 years ago. So, that goes a long way, too. Yeah, absolutely. Well, um, is Ego likeness the first project that you toured with? Um, or did you did you guys do any touring before that? Our our very first tour was uh opening for the Crew Shadows in Europe. Wow. So, you know, no pressure. and and you know there's a lot

15:06more you know if something goes wrong it's really easy to take care of that when you're in Europe for the first time and you don't know what you're doing. So that was a thing. Yeah, we we had played uh regionally in the US but you know it wasn't a um um never like a tour. It maybe at the most maybe like three shows in a row or something and not all that far from home. So yeah, that was a quite an uh going into that the first time like that trial by fire. So seriously. Yeah, because touring um when you're having to fly abroad is so different, right? Like

15:46the way you're thinking about things even on a technical level, I imagine. Yeah. Checking merch get, you know, because you can't print it here and ship it over. You have to actually find a place and have it made over there. Yeah. Um I mean, who knows what it's like now? It's been so long since we've toured over there at this point. And that was in what 2005 I think last time we were there was no no the first time. Oh first time was 2005 and then yeah so who knows a few other times after that but yeah it's um we did learn a very valuable lesson

16:16which is uh cover your [ __ ] up you know uh we were uh we did our first show and then we were like hey we can go to Amsterdam because literally it's right there so you can just drive there. And um we we were in a uh a station wagon and and you know we had requested for a vehicle without uh that was automatic um because only one member of the band could drive stick uh and it wasn't me and it wasn't her. So so yeah, our keyboard player Justin uh ended up driving the entire tour. So that was pretty rough for him. But anyway, we

16:49were in the station wagon and the station wagon had one of those things where you can pull this black plastic over the back uh to cover up whatever was inside the thing. Right. So, we're in Amsterdam. We park at the hotel. Everything's cooled. We go into the city for a bit, come back, and every single vehicle except ours had been broken into because ours had the thing covering up. So, they just couldn't tell what was in there. But if we hadn't do done that, that would have been it for that tour. We left out on that one. That was such a I mean, it was a great tour, but it was

17:23so hard. You know, like he said, we had you we know that um you know, automatic vehicles are not common over there. So, you know, we made a special request with the company like we must have an automatic. Oh, yeah, sure. We have some. We have some. Great. Yeah. Get there. Nope. Not one in sight. So, was like, oh. And then so Justin tried to teach me how to drive it in like a parking lot of like some big box, you know, store in, you know, whatever the German version was. Oh, it's not good. I tried. Really tried. I feel I can't drive stick either. So, I

18:04mean, at least you tried. I did because I really didn't want him to have to do, you know, and you didn't have your driver's license yet. So it just felt terrible that Justin was I mean there was no choice. There was no one else to drive. So he had to do the entire thing. Um which was never the plan. So yeah, we managed survived. So then um I imagine you started doing the touring um domestically here in the US after that. Yeah. Yeah. We did a couple more cruise shadows tours actually like like with uh one with just us as main support and then the other

18:43one was with area as well. So we did a couple of years of that which was great you know it got us in front of a lot of people and so that was really good and also those tours were just you know well you similar to yours there's like 50 shows or whatever over two and a half months or something like that. Uh, and it's great, you know. I mean, it's you learn all the things not to do, all the things that work for other people that don't work for you, the things that work for you that don't work for them, you know, and watching a band like that

19:08every night, and and kind of just dissecting what is it that they're doing that that makes sense and what would not work well for us. And that went a long way to kind of learning and how to trim everything down to what you need. So, that was a good one. Yeah, absolutely. I imagine like you know you were saying watching other bands like you know that have been doing it um is a great way to learn for sure. Oh yeah absolutely you know I don't think I don't think anybody can even teach you that stuff. I think you just have to observe it you know night like you said

19:48night after night um and then it just you start you know dissecting it all and figuring it out from there. Yeah. Well, for a for a band um starting out, like you know, if for a band that's never toured, like what what kind of advice would you share with them? Oh my god, there's I feel like Hey, there is a book written about that. Yeah, we're smart. Yes. You know what? Well, I'm gonna say I think something I mean because that's an amazing book and it's invaluable information there. Um, but I think, you know, we we're not huge. We're not a huge band in this

20:30scene. You know, got some fans. We we've had, you know, we do enough to have sustained the career as long as we have. but, you know, we can we can tell you how to tour when you aren't big enough to be getting a tour bus, when you aren't, you know, doing these huge shows. you're doing these small club shows and you know it's and it's great but you don't have a crew with you. You don't have you know all the space you might need you know and everything is just so DIY that I feel like that's where we have a really good handle on how to tour. So, kind of joking, but

21:11it's like, well, we should write that book because it would be like the, okay, well, here's here's the book about how you tour when you're a bigger band and you've got the bus and the crew and all of that stuff. And then here's how you do it when you're piling into a minivan and uh um you know, and everybody has a job, you know, so everything is covered. Um I but you know, just I don't know, giving like one bit of advice. I mean, I guess it just depends on what the person's needs are. Um, I think we've told a lot of bands that you do not need nearly the amount

21:47of fill in the blank that you think you do. You don't need all that gear. You don't need two or three vehicles worth of stuff. You might not even need all the people that you get rid of everything that doesn't make you money. Um, you know, you you don't but you don't need like these fancy things either that are just eating up any money you might be making, you know, and there's yeah, there's not a lot of money out there. So, you know, you just you have to make smart decisions and you say, you know, like sometimes be willing to be a little bit uncomfortable because

22:24that might mean the difference between, you know, you coming home with a little bit of money or even or, you know, flush or coming home like so in the red because you thought you needed all this stuff. So yeah, I think you have to have an honest conversation with yourself about what it looks like and what it costs and what you need and what you don't need. I think the the the thing I see a lot and it sucks because I I hate being put in this position, but it comes up and I also, you know, when you know how something works, like you want to

23:00ease people into it. And one of the things I I I get I see people or they'll ask me about they're like, "Hey, you know, I want to go touring." I'm like, "Okay, well that's cool, but why?" Like, "Do you have a fan base outside of your where you live?" Uh, you know, like it's very easy to I I think you need to really manage your expectations with it. Like um we've taken bands out that went out and they'll they've gone out as opening acts for other bands and one of the things that's difficult to until you until you hit the wall and you really experience it firsthand that

23:38you don't get is that you can go out and play for like open for I don't know somebody that's pulling in 500 people every night and they love you and they go nuts and all that stuff. Maybe a few people buy your CDs and that's cool and you're like, "Okay, I'm going to go back out and do the thing." And and they you don't really internalize that the moment that you get off stage and the other band goes on, you are gone. Like they no longer that audience is not thinking about you. Um and they're not your audience. So, like you're going to go back out there and if you are expecting

24:10those numbers like it to for that to really really have mattered, you're in for a real real real weird awakening, you know? And so, and I've seen that happen like I've seen we we took a band out with us once and I watched it as they we went show after show and the numbers they were really expecting for them were not showing up. And uh and I know that really, you know, had a had a pretty heavy psychological toll on them. I mean, it it happens like plenty of times. And I we've learned to, like you said, manage those expectations really quickly. Um and if

24:47you do that, then you can have a good time. You can make the good relationships. you can get a really solid even if it's a small fan base, you know, like you you can make it work, but you have to, you know, you just have to be able to be honest about what it is. I I literally go into every show assuming nobody's going to show up because that way, you know, if five people do, that's awesome. And if 500 people do, then that's [ __ ] awesome, too. But, you like you can't let it get we we did a show once with a much larger act and

25:22they were it was on Halloween and they were going to which incidentally is where the toilet thing happened. Oh, okay. That venue and um they were like, "Yeah, we're going to get dressed up and we're going to do this whole big thing." And they didn't get the numbers they wanted. It was like 30 people, pretty reasonable for what a Friday night or whatever. And it was a small town. Small city. Yeah, it was a small city. And you know, we're we were always of this, well, you're gonna get the best show 30 people ever got, you know, and we're out in the audience and doing the thing and

25:47and putting on the show. They did a half hour set and then left because they were like, well, we want to get back home early or whatever. And the promoter comes up to us at the end of night and he was like, "Well, I know who I lost money on. It wasn't you." you know, and and I that's one of those things where it's like you I mean that that makes me so angry when when bands do that when they when they u feel like they are somehow owed an audience or a certain response because of whatever, however they see themselves. Like it it makes me uh it

26:21makes me very angry. It makes me very sad for both them and and their audience, you know, because I don't know. I go into every single show like mentally going this is somebody's first show ever and you know you want that you want because I know you remember your first shows were and how important those were. So it's it's a good way of kind of re engaging with that. Yeah. And even with a small crowd those people all paid to be there. They deserve the same exact show that you would give a packed room. You know there's just no question about that. They just they don't need to

26:54see you being salty and, you know, clearly not having a good time up there, you know? That's just that's it's just not cool when you see that. We we had this one band that was from New York and they had done reasonably well in New York and then they went out on the road with us and the first show was in Pittsburgh and they get to the end of their set and they the audience just really wasn't and they were there for us or to dance and so they weren't really, you know, kind of milling around. They weren't rude either. No, they were they were, you know, paying attention. They

27:25get to the a end of it and the one of the guys goes, "Thank you, Pittsburgh. You've been totally over underwhelming." And I just turned to my keyboard player and I was like, we were like, "What? Did Did that like how can you not know?" And um yeah, that was one of those like did I think we were backstage and we're like, "Did we hear that correctly?" Right. Is that what he said? Yeah. Like wow. Yeah. Yeah. And it was kind of embarrassing since they were out with us. It was just like, "Wow, that's not a good look," right? You know. Yeah. So, yeah. Cuz I mean, I understand like

28:02especially when you it feels like an extension of your community in a way. So, yeah. Yeah. And we're also we're all on the same team. We all want, you know, like when we go out and if we're opening for somebody, you still put on the best show and you're gracious. Even if people, you know, are trickling in while you're playing and then all of a sudden it floods right after you get off stage, you still put on the show. Yeah. When you're going out with a a band and you're the opener, like you are a guest in their house basically. So, you have to act accordingly. like you can't if

28:32you act crappy towards people, you know, that like I mean, you know, I guess in in reality it doesn't make like promoters, you know, want to punish the the headlining act for that because you don't necess, you know, maybe they didn't have a way of knowing that it was going to be like that, but it's just a bad look. It's like you have to be Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, you know, from everything that you're sharing, it's it's obvious that, you know, choosing the touring life, which is really a chosen life, um, is and it is a way of life, um, is something that that you both are are are

29:14truly embedded and embodying. Um I I was just wondering like um why why why you do it I guess like what's your why with the with the the touring life is it's an extension of everything else that we do like um I you know I I this is I mean all I do is make stuff that that's our entire lives is financed by making music, making art, writing, Um because uh we're all we're both really bad at everything else. Um, and because both of us have spent our entire lives from go learning how to do it, you know. I mean, I was I was in art shows

29:57at 16. I was in college art classes at 16. I was Donna was, you know, in opera at, you know, -5, you know. So like you know in the womb she was she was uh singing and uh so I and one of the things when this comes up some like I really don't recommend doing it. Um it's it's uh you we like to shatter those dreams straight out of the get you do not want to do this. I had somebody get really mad at me one time that I was not being more encouraging to young artists. And you know, I'd make these jokes like, "Oh,

30:33welcome to your career in the arts and somebody falling downstairs or whatever." And they're like, "You should be more encouraging." I'm like, "Well, here's the thing. This is the reality of how this is." Now, I can lie to you and tell you it's going to be really easy and that might make you feel better until it actually happens. at which point, you know, not only you're running around with this illusion getting shattered and you get mad at me about it because I, you know, gave you a bunch of [ __ ] and and then maybe you give up. Whereas, if you go into it going, "Hi, yeah, this

31:03is going to be really [ __ ] hard for the rest of your life." Um, you know, it's much much easier to cope with and and I would rather somebody decide, you know, make an informed decision, go, "Well, okay, that's way too much for me to cope with, so I'm going to just go do this." Yeah. as opposed to, you know, getting into something and not recognizing how hard it is. And there's no shame, you know, for the people out there who have attempted, you know, they gave it the shot and they were like, "This is not for me." And it's like, there is nothing wrong with you for

31:34feeling like it's not for you because it's really hard. It's really hard and you have to build your entire life around it. I mean, we live in the middle of nowhere because it's cheap. We don't have kids because we're selfish. um you know and and all of those other things though like like we we don't we've got a lot of random little bits of stuff but any everything else that we own it's tools it's art supplies or studio or whatever like we we we don't like have massive collections of random things you know so it's like you you really have to understand your finances and and figure

32:11out all of those things and and figure out all the ways of kind of weasling ling around, you know, for for years. We had our own silk screening press, so we did all our own shirts, and that was great cuz that was that way we could like sell she shirts for 10 bucks each and and still make money. Um, you know, you just you have to give up an awful lot to, you know, I mean, that's and I guess that's true for most things that you're passionate about that really, you know, send you down a certain path in life. It means giving up other things. Um, but you know, it's

32:45just it's a lot to give up and and just like people not feeling like they're cut out for the physical aspect of being on the road. You know, there's also people that they just they need more stability than that. And I get that too, especially now as we're getting older and older. It's like I don't know sometimes cuz you know I'm getting kind of tired but I'm like I there's there's nothing else we can do. So we just have to do this until we drop dead I think. But you and you also still enjoy it. It's still you still getting more out of it than you're putting into

33:22it. I I remember uh when so I work all the time like like it's um it's a problem. Uh, and uh, like if I I get really antsy, if I'm not doing something to making something or or you know, putting stuff in the chamber that will eventually help with other stuff. Uh, the first time we were on tour in Europe, I was in I was in our vehicle and I was like, should I what should I be doing right now? What should I be I don't know what I should be doing here? And and I realized I was like, "Oh, I'm I'm doing what I'm

33:54supposed to be doing, which is just sitting here waiting to get to the next show." And uh I think for me when we started touring, it was this moment of okay, this is this uses every single thing I know how to do, you know, from making the artwork for all of that stuff to make artwork to sell during it to gear to to shows to performing to just, you know, all the other logistical So that actually helps me. Um I've got awful ADD and I'm very very medicated for it. Um but uh it helped and because but because of that prior to all of those things, you know, for most people

34:36who live with ADD, it's very much in the moment and and if you're lucky, you can think a week ahead or whatever. Uh but with that I was like well this is the only thing I've ever done that makes sense to me and I want to continue to do that which requires having to really start thinking ahead like okay well if I want to go on tour again I need to book six months ahead which means the album needs to be done here which means the you know needs to be released here which means it has to be mastered here which means the record has to be done here

35:00which means I should have started it six months ago you know so um that you know when you have something that that does does work for you that well, you know, you can you can either let it kill you or you can recognize like, oh, okay, this is something I can now use as a tool to to build everything off of it. And uh and that's been that's been great. I was actually just talking to somebody about uh about getting this kind of thing done. Like I've got a new Stone Runner record that's coming in September. It's been done since August. Um because I've been going through different people to

35:39mix it and things like that, but I wanted to make sure I had it done with enough time to get it mixed properly. I like there's an ADD me thing that we do that's really unhealthy, which is waiting until the last minute and then using all of that stress to focus you to get it done, which you know ends up with a bunch of crap usually. So, you know, instead of doing that, you can also go, okay, I'm giving myself a ridiculous amount of time to do it, and then I can do it at a pace that's reasonable and get the best thing done. So, I think

36:11that the just learning different tricks um allow to facilitate the life that you want to have and and figuring out, okay, what what is it? How do you work? And how can you use how you work to to help that? And also like we divide things much better now like like Donna is doing a lot of our booking now which is great cuz I hate booking tours. Um and uh you know so like and she does she does all the tour management stuff. Um so like she will once she has everything laid out she's like okay here are the hotels. We know how this is

36:51working. We know it should take this long to get here, but we're adding a bunch of hours because of traffic. 15 minutes per hour. There you go. That's your That'll almost be exactly right every time. 15 minutes for every hour. Um she will periodically she uh go to a bar or something and she'll end up talking to truck drivers. And the truck drivers were because I think I'm a truck driver even though it's just a minivan. But I do these long hauls. It's like a little dog next to the Rottwire. I know. That's what I think. And um but no, but what's funny is that she'll start naming

37:29routes and talking about different things and mountain passes and they're like, "Oh, that one's a rough one." I'm like, "Yeah, I know. Tell me about it." Like like they don't have an entire tractor trailer that they're taking over this mountain. And I'm like, "We're in the minivan." But I do. Yeah. Still Um, yeah. Yeah, I like to pretend I'm a truck driver. I always sit down. We Well, in the interest of, you know, uh, so you can, you know, you're a goth type band or whatever, and if you bring an art goth type band out with you, the the the ven diagram of fans is going to

38:02be pretty small, but so we'll try and bring out like industrial bands or like whatever, something that's close enough, still wearing black, but not quite in the same thing. And I I'll end up having to sit down with them uh, you know, during the first show. I'm like, "Look, I get that you're this big badass industrial guys. I I get that and that's cool, but if you forget that Donna has bigger balls than all of you combined, and you don't do what she says to do when it's time to do it, it's going to be a problem." Like, we've been doing this for 25 years. We have done x number

38:34of trips back and forth across the country. If she says gas up now, gas up now because that means there is no gas for a really long time, you know, and all kinds of other just Well, I wanted to be a ctographer when I was little. So, I spent a lot of time um studying maps and globes and atlases and, you know, go figure that skill has transferred beautifully into the touring life. you know, just learning how to know like, you know, just knowing like how long something's going to take and what the topography is going to be like and, you know, just plotting that stuff

39:11out. And it's not really a control freak thing. It's, you know, I I don't have ADHD, but I have anxiety and I, you know, that's my way of sort of channeling it into something good because I won't make an impulsive decision. I will think through. I will think it through every single day. I have it thought out and I'm the one good thing again, you know, being medicated is absolutely necessary for us. Um, but it keeps me flexible. Like I've got it all planned out, but over the years I've become so fine with if it has to change, it has to change. There's no sense in

39:53freaking out over it. But that was a learned skill over time, you know, with medication being added in to make that happen. But um yeah, like I I only get aggravated sometimes when we're out with other people and they just they don't want to trust me on something and I'm like, "You need to trust me. I know what I'm talking about." Like we don't have to leave that early. I'm like, "But we do. Trust me. You'll see why." you know, and then we get stuck in traffic that doesn't move for an hour and it's like this is why we left early because I knew this was going to happen. Um, so yeah,

40:29sometimes they just need to listen to me. And also, you know, really uh we also trying to remember really practical [ __ ] like we've got the stow and go heating, we've got um we've got like heat blankets, the solar blankets, solar blankets, we've got extra water, we've got all the car stuff. um signal flares like yeah I mean all that stuff because you just never [ __ ] know um you know you can be out in the middle of Mojave and end up going on the wrong thing and screwed or and it's come in handy a few times you know we had we had one guy in another band get sick he couldn't we

41:04couldn't take him to the hospital he couldn't drive himself we had to play the show we wrapped him up like a burrito in one of the solar blankets and just left him in his car you know I mean you know not for good we did get him we got him to a host eventually But even the doctors, they were like, "Yeah, if you hadn't come like like you you were in serious trouble if you had gotten here later than this, the real problem." Yeah. So, you know, definitely that's one of those things that you do. It is good to know about and it's good to know like

41:33uh the potentials are there and if you know because the last thing you want as as a any of those acts is to to you know, if you're new to this and you get hit with one of those things, it can throw you for a loop. We're we're doing a lot of um desert and mountain driving as we often do, you know, coming up. And um I was thinking through all the stuff in our little emergency bag and I was like, "Okay, we still have that can of bear spray, but I don't know if it's still good." And Steve's like, "Well, we we try it out." And I'm like, "Or I

42:04could look at the expiration date on it. We don't have to spray it in the bag, put your face in the bag, and you know, if your head explodes, then then that's you know, it's still good." But that's how far I think through stuff. I'm like, we should be traveling with bear spray. But I mean, you know, when you end up pulling off on the side of the road on a mountain and you see the mountain lion warning signs. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, I don't feel stupid for having this bear spray. But it doesn't do a lot of good like buried down just thinking about

42:32that in the van. So, I think and we also we also have uh have any number of weapons readily accessible in the van as well. We have to talk about that. No, I'm just saying though, it's a good thing to know about that or things that like really big flashlights things that can be used as weapons if we should say. Yeah. So, no, it's for checking the tires. Um, but well, one of the things I always tell people too is like, look, you you know, you the shows can't be your carrot. Like, you have to enjoy every single aspect of doing it because you're going to have [ __ ] shows. And if that's

43:04the thing that you're holding on to as the motivation for doing it, then then it's going to be a problem. Like you have to you you do you have to enjoy changing changing tires in the snow in the Rockies and you know all the other weird random things you know. Um a buddy of mine once compared he was like it's like going into space. Like we all have to get along in our little space capsule while we're doing it because millions of people want to do this and and you get to and that's really cool and when you get back you never have to do it again

43:36and that's totally fine. But while we're in space together, we all have to get along, you know. Do do you with your uh people have a no complaining rule or a limited complaining rule because that's what we do. Like everyone's tired. It's actually funny. I I guess I've lucked out in that just naturally we're not really that way. Um so we we've never had to set that rule. Um, I I will say that I have like the the mother bear sense myself when I'm like, "Oh, he's hungry. Oh, I need to get him coffee." Like, I just kind of sense that, but um, you know, but they don't complain about

44:15that, which I'm super grateful for. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think they know that that that we don't care if they do complain. So, it's kind of like we have the vanual uh, which is just breaks down all the rules for inside the van. Manual. The vanual. The van. And it's where I keep like no fish, no fish in the van. Um if I So there used to be a no ice cream rule, but now the rule is is you can have the ice cream, but when you're done, if there's sticky ice cream everywhere, then you then you lose your ice cream privileges. That's it. Um we

44:52make um we did make a concession. It's not fish, but seafood. Like Mike wanted the popcorn shrimp from like Popeye's and I said that's fine, but you're gonna count how many are in there and you're gonna make sure that same number goes in your mouth because if one of those shrimps rolls away and goes under a seat and we're out here in 117 degree weather, that's going to be bad and we're gonna have to kill you and leave you. I mean, that's you know. So, so you know, I try to um No fireworks. No fireworks. They're right there. Phantom fireworks. Biggest fireworks store. Fireworks are illegal to buy in

45:35Maryland. So, everybody gets really excited at all the fireworks places. And I'm like, we're not traveling with a van full of fireworks. I don't know why. I shouldn't have to say that. I feel like I should not have to explain that to anyone. Um, what was the newest one? Oh, no. Nitrous tanks. That's the newest one. That was Rick. Yeah, I'm sure. Well, I'm trying to think what else there's. Um, you're allowed to get sick for three days. You have one day where you can get really, really sick and complain and be sad about it. After that, like you're either taking you to the hospital or you have to shut the

46:08[ __ ] up, you know? So, no, no, I I'm like you though, like I can I do ask I check in all the time with everybody. Are you hungry? Do you need to stop? Do you need a break? I will stop a million times. I build in enough time to do that. So I will stop a million times if it means, you know, people can be more comfortable, you know, like I do care about that very much. I want my people to be comfortable. Um, but yeah, like and and Mike and Rick are so good about it now and and Nathan, you know, Stone, like everybody's really good about it. I

46:45think at one point, you know, early on with with various people, there had to be some talks about like, I really don't want to hear that you're tired because I've been driving for eight hours and still have to do a show tonight. So, I know you're tired. Not invalidating that, but it doesn't make me feel like better. Like also like when we get to the show, when we get to the venues, like Donna can just chill and and whatever because she's been doing all the driving. So it's like she hasn't to carry anything in, carry it out, she's good. Um the the other merch, but the

47:22other important rule is uh we're the only people allowed to have sex in our hotel room. Very important. We're paying for it. If you want to go have sex somewhere else, you can get your own goddamn room. Uh, not that we're doing it while they're here, but it's the point involved while they're in there. But it's the point involved. It's like I don't want to walk in after, right? I don't want to walk in after being tired from a show and see that, you know, particularly with the guys in our band. Um, so yeah. Yeah, that was that's a that's a good rule. I don't know. I feel like our

47:53rules are are common sense or it's something very specialized and it's specialized for a very good reason and that's because somebody did something stupid and now we have a rule. Everybody Everybody takes takes their own gear and pack packs their own gear like and once it's like when we're tearing down the stage like I tear my stuff down, put it out wherever we're going to stage from. They do that also. And if they don't do that, then I'm just leaving it there and packing it. Like like if if Rick's stuff is not packed up at all and still set up and I'm loading the van up, I'm like, I'm not touching

48:29it. I'm not going to break their [ __ ] Everybody has to take care of their stuff. Um, for sure. We also try we also try to be the band that like like we actually reroll the cables at shows and and like you know try and do all clean up clean up the stages, stuff like that. Um, people make fun of me because I clean the green room. Clean the green room. I don't I clean the hotel rooms, too. I I mean, I just put all the trash in the trash, you know? Like, that's not hard. If there's, you tons of cups and glasses, like I'll I just bust Absolutely. I was a

49:05bartender. I'm like, I'm just taking these glasses back to the bar. But I'm like, it's not hard to throw trash away. No. No. and and you know like hey can I unplug my my stuff from your snake you know like just making sure that you're communicating with everybody because like man I like I've worked in venues and I've done sound and like I I really absolutely believe that any band that goes on tour should be forced to do live sound in a [ __ ] club for about two years you know and to learn all the things not to do with that. So yeah, for sure. I mean, it

49:39sounds, you know, that you guys are really amazing at communicating. I mean, it seems like you're able to like really voice, you know, like boundaries and, you know, things like that, which I'm sure is a really big part of how you're able to like, you know, navigate even internal band stuff is just being able to communicate. Yeah. And, you know, all of us have had our we've all had that tour where we were not in a good place. one of us was not in a good place and it was a very rough tour and you know it probably was not fun for anyone because of that. But you know in a 20 year span

50:15of touring you know there there's only been a couple of you know experiences like that. Usually, we're all very happy to be back out there. But, I mean, I when somebody new joins the band, I can't impress upon you how much I try to explain to them, you have to talk to me if there's a problem. I don't care what the problem is. It can be anything, but you cannot sit there and stew and be upset and then lash out or get, you know, you can't do that. You have to talk. You have to communicate. We need to know if, you know, I mean, we make

50:52the jokes about like, oh, you're not allowed to get sick or you're only sick for three days. But no, seriously, if there's something wrong, we have to know because then we can maybe we can do something about it. But and if somebody's having a problem with somebody else that we're, you know, working with or around, which thankfully is never the case. That's never But it's like, you know, just Oh, wait. We have that one guy. one guy brought out. He was awful. Like yeah, the communication is everything. We just you have to because if you if you don't tell us what's wrong after we have, you know,

51:29begged and pleaded for you to communicate with us and tell us what's wrong. If you don't tell us and then everything goes to [ __ ] for you, I can't help you. Like there was a point I probably could have helped you. So, we just people need to be responsible for themselves and when you are, it makes it easy for everybody else to actually want and be able to help you, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think something I really admire about both of you is just how beautifully honest you are um you know, about your art, about who you are. Um, and I think that's

52:09something that it it I think that actually invites other people to also be able to have that level of honesty as well. So I imagine that you draw that kind of honesty, you know, around you. Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, I I think we work with adults. We work with grown ass adults and that goes a long way right there. like, you know, when we first started out and we were kind of, you know, still kind of a local Baltimore thing and we we definitely had a few people that came along that that were trying to like just trying who hadn't gotten whatever

52:42their chemistry was or whatever their their mental states were under control and they would do like stupid [ __ ] to push back or like when we were practicing at our house at one point and I had to turn to somebody in the band be like, "This is our house. We live here. We're practicing here. Please stop leaving your trash on my sofa." you know, and just like like like this is a a real thing that that that you know, like it's not just going to be us getting together and writing songs and being happy and all like writing songs and being happy and and it's it's like

53:11it's work, it's job, it's a thing. And uh you know, if I tell you to do something, you do it because it's my [ __ ] band, you know? So that's the other part of it, too. Like like like I don't care. Bring something to the table, it's cool. If we like it, go for it. If we don't like it, we'll tell you you stop doing it. Um, so but but in general like our guys are are great and honestly if Rick was doing something um I wouldn't know and neither would he. Uh none of us can hear anybody else on stage. We we all have our in ears. Um

53:39and all I hear tracks my guitar and her vocals. Our sound checks are hilarious because it's just I don't use in ears because I just don't I don't like them. So as long as I have like a a front monitor, I'm fine. But everybody's like, Rick will be like, "All right, I need my guitar in my in here and take Donna out. I don't want to hear Donna. I don't want to hear Steve. I don't want to hear." And every like nobody wants to hear anybody else. I'm like, "I just want to hear the tracks and my voice and I don't need to hear the guitars because I can

54:10already hear them. You know, they're just they blast me out with those guitars." So, yeah. But it is really funny that we just are like just just pretend we're all in our own little individual zones up here and that's how you run sound for us. I I was thinking about that the other day like I don't think it ever occurred to me but but what I think the band sounds like is completely different than what Rick thinks the band sounds like. Um which is pretty funny. Uh so but the great thing about the you know both those guys is like we don't practice like we we never

54:40we I don't think we've had a practice in over 10 years. Not together. I mean, we and then they do on their own, but we've never done a group band practice. So, I just send them the songs and we get to soundcheck and uh you know, if we have time, we'll run through parts of something like if there's a new song, something new, but um and that's the first time we ever hear it as a group. Um so, but it's nice because, you know, you just when you work with people who know what they're doing and you trust them, it's just going to look, you know,

55:09Yeah. And like what you you sort of touched on this, if they if they wanted to, you know, you know, embellish something or add something in that wasn't in the recorded, you know, version, go ahead. And after that first time playing it, if we didn't like it, then we just tell them like, don't do that if we don't think it worked. But most of the time it's been like, cool, that sounded great. I think I think um Mike watches for my face like if he plays some if he's like gonna try something new out and Rick does it too. If they're going to try something new out they wait to see if

55:48I'm if I do the like give them that look like are you playing right now? As long as I don't do that they don't see that face then we're fine. Means means whatever they're playing is perfectly fine with me. I'm not that kind of guitar player. So once I write something down like like I'm the guy from that dire straight song. It's strictly rhythm. I just like making big big for me a guitar is just a big distorted keyboard. And so it's like I'm just playing power chords because and and washes with that and stuff like that. So once it's written that's what it stays and my entire goal is just

56:24never to fall down. So that's that's the whole thing that happens for me on I wanted to take just a quick moment to um to say hello to everyone that's been um hanging out and and thank you all so much for for hanging out with us. Um you had a question from Indie Goth Society who was asking what your favorite snacks no. Can't tell you. Um, I don't know. You guys like So Rick Rick and I kind of independently realized that both of us go through a whole lot of um of bottle caps, you know, the bottle cap candies. And uh he just sent me earlier today a a text with

57:11a picture of a case that he had bought. He was like, "Well, we're set for the tour." So, um, uh, you know, we're we're so minimal about stuff like, um, you know, I don't even snack. Like, I don't don't I do, but not much. Yeah. But I don't know. Everybody likes candy. Yeah. Even on our riders, it's like, you know, a deli tray is nice or whatever. Like, we always try and keep the amount of money venues spend on us as low as we can. I think I took that off because nobody ever eats the deli tray. I I do. Do you? Yeah. Because usually the venues

57:48should give us like other have like other food that we can get right away. So, well, I I often eat the deli. I don't like being wasteful. So, yeah. If we get a deli tray and people don't eat like 80% of it, then I'm not asking for a deli tray again because, you know, wasteful. My ongoing thing actually, I have got one a couple of things, but but one uh green apple Gatorade. Oh, yeah. That's I I did the math one time after one tour and I think I went through like 56 bottles of green apricade, you know, two per show. So yeah, if people wanted

58:20to provide a snack, that's a good That's always a good one. That's a good thing. And we we have a very very select number of friends who who will make us things as we go through these wonderful friends in Tennessee that will make these uh the text rolls text rolls. And we were on tour with somebody and they were like, "What's that?" And I opened it up and I just picked one out. like this is exactly what you want right now and put them in their mouth and he was like that was exactly what I wanted right now. The Martin sisters in Tennessee. Yeah. They they um anytime we would play in

58:51Nashville, you know, one of them would send me a message and say, "Should I bring the text me?" And I was like, "I don't you never need to ask me that question ever again." The answer is always yes. And they'll always like if it's in like November, we they'll also give us all the Halloween candy they've got left over. Yeah. Um, see, and we don't usually like we oftentimes don't want people to bring us stuff because a lot of times it'll come in some like very huge thing and we're like we don't have space for this somebody's birthday. It's like don't please don't bring us a

59:19cake because they can't do anything because you feel terrible because like we're you know usually we end up like we might get it to the hotel and then that's where it's going to live. Although one one year at Dragon Con, somebody gave us two cakes and that just lived in on the floor in the corner of the hotel room and and at least I did ate from it every day for four days. She little little bit a little more the birthday cake, a little more the birthday cake. A little more birthday. You're like Homer in the sub stage. You want to stop eating? I'm like I don't My name's right there.

59:54I don't think that cake's good anymore, It's a little hard on topics. Okay. Um Yeah. I do love those text mixers. Oh, yes. Yes. AJ and Yeah. She'll show up with perogis. So good. Or Simonic. Sonic has perogis, too. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, places like that that there's little points of home that are always nice. Um, a lot of stuff we have to be careful with like baked goods and things like like I can't do walnuts and Donna can't has a few things she can't do. So, it's like people will try and do that sort of thing. It's like that's cool, but you

1:00:36know, we're good. You know, I feel it's it's so awkward like when people want to feed us because it's so sweet and it's so appreciated, but everybody in the band has a different thing, you know? We've all got stuff. It's like I can't have these things. He can't have this thing. I don't eat meat. I You know, you can always bring cases of Red Bull because we'll always do that. If you want to be really awesome, bring AA batteries and socks. Yeah. Yeah. That's our snacks. Double A batteries. And socks. Yeah. Well, no. Because I mean, you wear the socks for however long, throw them away because doing that

1:01:09laundry is just pain in the ass. Gaff tape. Gaff gaff tape. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Batteries for sure. That's always a very appreciated. Yeah, we are sharing batteries. So, actually, well, maybe you I always I swap the batteries out every show. I know. Do you guys do that also? Because I always feel like a horrible waste stroll for it, but you can't use rechargeable ones with them. And so, I'm sure they're still probably partially good, but I just don't want to risk it. I don't know if that's what you guys do also, but um no, we actually use them for a few shows, but um I have learned

1:01:46how to swap my batteries quickly because I've had my share of like, oh, that just went out, so swap it in between. I um I have such bad eyesight. Like I I'm glad that you know again I feel wasteful for doing it but I'm glad that we changed the batteries and the mic so often because there is zero chance that I would be able to see how to put them in correctly. You know if it bright lights and I had my glasses I'd be fine. But yeah up there I'm like no this is the the show's over. I'm just I don't need this microphone anymore. Just throw

1:02:23it away. I'm just going to sing like without it. I can't there's no way I'd be able to see to do it. Um the side of the stage with like a flashlight like trying to it's you know it's for the most part I think 99% of the time we do not run into any situation where people look at us any differently because we have a female singer. But uh we were playing uh Dragon Con actually one time and the sound guy is like it was a $4,000 mic, you know, don't cup it. You know how you how you how Yeah. He's telling me how to use the

1:03:02microphone, you know, during soundcheck. And I, you know, I just take it in my hand very gingerly and I'm like looking at it like I've never seen one before. And I'm like, what are you like, dude, what the So, you know, I'm like, yes, I I I will not hurt your microphone. I promise. And I I know how to use it. Um, and we get what, one song in second. We were maybe on the second song. Mike's it cut out. It's gone. There's no sound. And you know, this is Dragon Con, so you know, there's like 4,000 people, several thousand people in the audience. And um one of the stage um

1:03:46hands comes, you know, running on and grabs the mic from me to figure out what's happened. So I just stood there. I kept singing. I was just like screaming at the entire front. I just told them to keep playing. I was like just gonna sing. So, uh, you know, a minute later they come back and they give me the mic and everything's fine. Um, and after the set it was like, "Wow, your $4,000 microphone isn't worth [ __ ] if you didn't put new batteries in it. The battery had died." Oh. And I'm like, "Wow, that's really Yeah, you're a real guy. Thanks for uh giving me that lesson

1:04:18on how to use a microphone." And then you didn't even change the battery in Yeah. So, yeah. I feel like that may that might have been a karmic moment. Yeah, I would like to I I like to think it was a teachable moment for him. Yes. So, um, for those of you, uh, who are new, um, to the amazing, um, Donna and Stephen, um, you you also have many other projects, um, and many other expressions. Um, which I think is incredible that you integrate it as well into your tours. Like you were, we were talking earlier about um, how you will do your your poetry, reading, your

1:05:00spoken word. Um, uh, Stephen, I know you you're doing DJ sets as well. Um um so just like wondering like did this was this a natural progression like as you you know began to expand as artists where we were like you know let's just start integrating these into our tours as well. I mean it just it yeah I mean because you know obviously the the main goal is to make the thing. the next goal is to try to get the thing in front of people and so you can continue to make the thing and um you know it it just makes good sense if you

1:05:38have something that you can take that show on the road and use you know and there's one more thing it's kind of like with the merchandise you know of course you know we'll have CDs sometimes we have shirts um but then we've got all of that art all of Steve's art and all of our books and it's the kind thing where it's like, well, if you've already bought a shirt, you already bought a CD, or even if you came not knowing who we were and you didn't even like the band, you still could buy some art, you know? It's like you can buy a t-shirt or you

1:06:09can buy something handmade, you know. Yeah. But the um but it's so that is kind of the same thing as being able to walk in, you know, to to call up a venue and be like, "Look, I I I can do anyone or all of these things. You know, if you if you want to have the band, we can do the band. If you want to have a spoken word set, we can do that. If you want to have a DJ set, we can do that. if you want to have an art show, we can do, you just there's no sense in doing all of

1:06:41this stuff and not utilizing it to its fullest and using the, you know, the the touring, you know, wanting to be on the road. And that's the thing, too. It's like I I want to travel. I just always want to be traveling. So, the more things you do that can facilitate that, that's, you know, that's it. Like I don't I don't thrive just sitting at home. I do not um I'm I am the best me when I'm out on the road. I think we're the best us. I mean we're the most content I think as a married couple. Um because of that, you know, again, it's

1:07:25you you you the thing the thing I think works so well with touring is that yeah, you know exactly how every every day is essentially going to go, but there are a ton of variables within that about how it's going to manifest. And you know, whereas at home, you have to kind of like prioritize and figure out what you're going to do at different times and you know, just all of that stuff. It's just so like you actually feel like you're progressing. And also, and I'm sure you experienced this, the the time stretching, you know, like the only way I know of of of slowing down

1:08:00the speed of life is by constantly like doing new things and touring. You know, it's like you can go out for three days and you feel like you're gone for a month. So, you know, it it it does, you know, Yeah. There's a time warp that happens when you're out there, you know, and especially, you know, living where we do where we have seasons. So, you know, we might go on a tour and miss an entire season out here, like, you know, because it'll be, you know, we get down south and we get out to the southwest and it's hot, you know, and then, you know, it is what it is

1:08:34wherever. But, you know, we we'll leave here in, you know, at the end of summer and then, you know, just for example, and then when we get home, it's winter time. And I'm like, where did fall go? Where where was autumn? Like, this whole time we just completely missed it. So, it's a it's, you know, I'm sure you guys know it's just very surreal. Um because it's like it feels like it's going on for so long and then as soon as you're home from it, it's like, "God, where did that whole tour go?" Yeah. Yeah. It all slams back in there, but but while you're out there, it really does have

1:09:09that kind of cool effect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I feel like it's such a present life, right? Like you're really really pre like you have to be really present, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good way to put it. And I think, you know, I think when you have like mental health issues like I do um my my personal hell is being trapped in, you know, the past like ruminating and spiraling on the things in the past or fretting and worrying about what is in the future where But you get us in that van and I'm I'm right there and every day is a new day and

1:09:51yeah, know like we have our we you know we have it planned out we know what we're going to do got emergency stuff figured out all of it. So it's like yeah you just live and I don't I don't find myself trapped in the past or or worrying about the future. So, you know, that's probably a huge um internal driving force to want to keep doing things that make it so we can, you know, get in that van and go. And, you know, really living, we live in the future. Like, I think I was just thinking the only thing I can't do on the road that I

1:10:26can do at home is paint large pictures. everything else. Everything else I can do, including recording, you know, like like I've got a I bought a $30 USB mic cuz I hurt my back and I couldn't use my regular one. And you know what? It's fantastic. So, I've been sing recording with that and and it's going out into the world, you know, and so like and using those uh Steve Slate headphones put you in a studio and that's good for mixing. And so, yeah, I mean, there's just very, very little now that I can't do in a hotel room or in the van. Um, I

1:11:02can't I can't even tell you the amount of work that I have done. I've done cover art for people digitally. I've done all kinds of books and other things just while we're while we're on the road. And that's great. You know, it's um yeah, I when you're home, I think it's very you really become aware of the holy [ __ ] an hour ago, it was last week, you know, and you realize the amount of time that that that like we'll just, you know, and I hate that. I hate that. You know, you put something in the microwave and it dings. It's like, well, there's five more minutes of your life,

1:11:38you know, and uh whereas on tour at least, it's like you're you're you're you are much more in the moment and you're like, okay, well, now I have eight hours in this van. What can I do to not go crazy and also like, you know, be productive with the time. So, you become very aware of all of that. Sorry, I'm just laughing about the microwave because I I think about that all the all the I caught myself thinking that the other day. I just I was just looking at the microwave and I was like, "Oh god, it's just like a countdown to the end of

1:12:05my life every time I do this." So now I just walk away, you know, go do something else. That's good. That's good. Yeah. I think that's amazing that you're able to be creative on the road. Um like are there particular mediums that you veer toward like when when you are versus at home? Oh. Uh, no, not necessarily. I'll do the same stuff on tour as at home, but I mean like I do a lot of like I'll before we go on tour, I'll make all these sketchbooks with like I'll put other imagery into it, right? And then eventually it will end up, you know, something like this, which I'll sell,

1:12:46you know, from being at home or or we'll sell on tour. Um, and I've got uh got these really good systems for like making a lot of work quickly. Um, so like I've got three of those books that full two weeks ago and now I've kind of gone through and harvested a stack of pages from them that I'm now building up Um, so you know that's that's something. Um, and you know, like I said, living in the future. I've written entire records on my iPad. Um, you know, with with um was it uh group box. So like all the Queen Neon stuff was written using group

1:13:28box as a bass and then dropping in uh into Reason at Home and then just adding stuff to that. Um but even now I now I don't even really need to do that. Um, so or a bunch of years back I did a tarot deck and then that was completely analog. That was all paper and pen and other stuff. And so I did what 80 something cards over two months on tour uh with that. Um, and you do you do use you do a lot of writing in your head when you're when we're on tour. Only every once in a while. I no my my

1:14:03focus on tour is the the inner workings of the you know the shows and the tour managing and then just getting us from point A to point B safely. Like that's pretty much all I have the um bandwidth for really. I mean I did in the past I I had really uh fleshed out some stories and you know one of them became a nolla and you know some short stories and stuff but I I think I just get a little too weary now to be thinking I mean if something pops in my head that's great but I just like I need that chill time. I need that, you know, it's like I just

1:14:43can't keep trying to come up with stuff while I'm driving and while I'm, you know, trying to prepare myself for the shows and, you know, so it's like I feel like I have enough jobs going on. We've done a lot of like u of kind of pre-work for records, too, you know, just like working through concepts and things like that. Drive late night drives coming back from New York are really good for that one. Mhm. Three hours on the turnpike in the dark. Um Donna, you have a fellow um writer in the chat. Um uh Doug Stevens wanted wanted to ask about your your writing.

1:15:26Um if you could share, uh where people could find your writing um and if there's any places that you're going to be doing um any of your your spoken word. Yeah, sure. Um, well, my most of my books are put out by Raw Dog Screaming Press. Um, so they have I think you can buy off of there. Um, uh, eagleness band.com has the links to our books, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. But al or you can just look us up on Amazon. Yeah. But some people are keen with using Amazon now. So, but any pretty much any book distributor. Um, but you can see what my um, like on any of the

1:16:03websites like Facebook or on the Raw Dog Screaming Press website. It, you know, has my bibliography on there. Um, I am doing a, um, spoken word set as well as EGO is playing in Minneapolis. Um, coming up on what I don't know what day that is. Let's see. Minneapolis is on May 13th. So, I'm doing a spoken word set at that show and then I'm doing one in Meridian, Ohio on May uh yeah, May 25th. Um there will be more. I, you know, I did a whole spoken word tour last summer where I did I think 16 cities. Um and but there are several cities that I didn't get to hit on that

1:16:53tour. So, I'm going to try to kind of make up for some of those as we're doing these shows coming up. So, and also probably next year. Um, yeah. No, I'm going to be doing some, too, which kind of fun. Yeah. So, he's putting out a book of uh poetry and short stories and I've heard some of it's really good and I think um I think it would be fun for us to go out together and do like a double spoken word thing. Well, I told him he has to open for me, but that's you know, he already knew that. So, No, that's awesome. Um, you got

1:17:30I'm I'm excited. I I would love to be able to experience the the duo the duo set like that. I imagine it'd be really Yeah, I'm excited. I think it'll be really um fun and definitely we'll try to figure out the timing on that once he gets his book out. Yeah. So, and I have a new one I'm working on, so ideally I would have that ready as well, but you know, we'll see how quickly we can get those wheels in motion. Um, they referred to the the band site. Um, that's eagle lilikenessband.com. Um, for for those of you who are are new. Um, also um we're

1:18:10you're getting a a hello with love from out uh at Radio Valkyrie Records. A Mark. Um, so I have been a fan of Mark since oh 2000 or no 1991 probably when they put their first record out. And uh that's one of the cool things about this and I'm sure you've experienced it where you get to you know you run across these artists and it's like oh this is amazing and then you end up becoming friends with them or working with them or whatever. And you know Mark is uh he masters a bunch of my stuff and does some mixing. He's kind of my last line

1:18:43of defense on a lot of the stuff that I do where I'm just like, "Okay, here are all the stems. Fix anything I did wrong." Um, and he's also one of those people that that is so gracious with this time when I'm like, "Okay, how does X thing work with frequencies or I'm mixing something and this is what I'm trying to do?" And, you know, he's so gracious about kind of uh not making me feel stupid when I ask, which is nice. Um, yeah. No, he's fantastic people. Um, and we together actually we did a we did a cover of um Putric acid by Consolidated. So that

1:19:19that's also a very cool thing. I love that. I I love the the interweavingings and it really is a small world in our community. It really really is. Um, speaking of which, uh, Clint Carney um, of Systemson Sin is here and I was saying those Steven Slate headphones are awesome. They're are killer. Um, yeah. No, I I was I was blown away by it and it has really made like the quality of my mixing went night and day when I started using Clint's another one of those people that I I every year or two I will like write him about some sort of obscure sculpting thing and and he's

1:19:56always very generous to explain to me he's like, "Oh, well yeah, you need to like wash the plastic because it doesn't handle paint well a certain way." And I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, there you go then." So yeah, it's it's always uh I feel very lucky to know so many people who know so much more about these these things than I do and the and the the selflessness of it because you know we don't I don't think we know anybody that isn't happy to tell you exactly how they do something. Yeah. Like it's we don't have to keep secrets. It's like help you know very much believe in helping people

1:20:29learn how to do the thing because they're never going to copy you. you know, it's never it's not a competition, right? It's not a competition. And it's also it's like they're not, you know, even if they have the same sort of um you know, process of of creating a thing, it's still not going to look like your thing. It's it's always going to be different. So, um you know, I think I I really appreciate how much everybody in this scene is so helpful with that. Like it makes me very happy, you know, for all of the things that people complain about with seeing stuff and, you know,

1:21:05of course there's all that mess sometimes, but the people who actually do the stuff like really like are tend to be pretty oblivious to all of that anyway and or it's just irrelevant like like that's all whatever. But yeah, yeah, so many people like helped us early on like Voltater Crew Shadows um they were the first people I could call up and be like, "How does this work?" and they they explain it. And uh you know, so I I just think it would be incredibly shitty of us to not do that when when people ask us, you know, and and I love I love doing the things that

1:21:40I do and the things that we do. And if if me explaining something helps you find that love for yourself, find something that really engages you that much, that's absolutely worth it. Mhm. Um so yeah, absolutely. I I I I feel like um also like when you when you're sharing I it's like um I feel like it also deepens your own understanding like to have to voice it out loud, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Because you have to be able to like break down the steps of whatever it is you're doing or or there might be tangential things. It's like, well, okay, I can explain that,

1:22:20but it's not going to make any sense unless you understand these other parts of it, you know? So, that's um yeah, I I've I've taught for ever and and I I I love it. I enjoy it so much like like being able to to have those systems where you like, okay, now this is the why of this, not just the how, which is always cool. Yeah. If anybody ever wanted to learn anything in particular particular from you, are you able it's like is that something people can hire you as as a teacher? Yeah, I I teach um I don't teach like standard poetry because you

1:22:59know I didn't even go to school for it. So I I can I can give you the very quick basics of poetry 101, but I like teaching people how to write horror, how to write horror poetry and how to write horror short form stuff. Um that I' I've done some classes and a couple symposiums on that, you know, which is kind of a a specialty thing, but I love teaching that. So yeah, and um and I've done, you know, I've I've had people ask me to read their stuff before and just give them feedback on it. So, you know, I'm available for that kind of thing. And yeah, he he teaches

1:23:35art. I do art classes. I've got um I've actually got a really good system for teaching painting to people who aren't don't have great drawing skills. Like, so that way we can kind of cut through cut cut through all of the stuff that you can't do to get to this kind of stuff, which is uh more interesting. I've got a good system for doing that online. Um, so yeah, I'm available for Uh, I if anybody wanted to talk gear stuff, I'll usually just talk about it for free, but you know, some there's specific things you want to learn, like I'm sure I'd be happy for you to give me

1:24:07money to to do that. But, um, but also, uh, where was I? Oh, yeah. But also, we do other stuff like, you know, Donna can do editing. I do remixing. I do production for people. Um, I do a ton of cover art for folks. book covers, music. Um, I I do uh commissions of pets. I only edit Yeah, the pet portraits are really sweet. I love those. Um, I' I've lately been enjoying it because periodically I will get pet portraits as historical figures. So, I did somebody's dog as Vlad the Impaler. Uh, which was a lot of fun. It came out so good, too. Um, oh, I was saying I I don't tend to

1:24:49do a lot of edit like offer editing services. I just do your stuff because I know if I mess it up, you won't get mad at me. So, you know, that's uh that's kind of that I'm I'm not as uh sharp as I used to be catching mistakes and things like that. So, got the the lime, the brain. But I think that's I mean it's it you know and an example of the fact that you you really are very multi-dimensional you know so it seems like it's a true life of like of the artist you know where it's sort of like doesn't really matter the medium you're just expressing

1:25:32it's all the same it's just different tools that's that's kind of the thing that like you know sometimes there's there's better ways of explaining you know you can use a different tool to explain it differently And sometimes they kind of feed into each other which is always very cool like like you know a song will become a story or the other way around or whatever. It really just it moves across all of them which is kind of neat. Like I mean, hell, I did an entire Stone Burner EP that turned into a 200page graphic novel, you know? So, it's um Yeah, it just goes where it needs to

1:26:08go to to tell the to to be as fully realized, I guess, as you can, right? Yeah. I mean, do you It's interesting because I had a conversation with Clint about this actually the other day, but do you go into an album knowing that you're going to write the album or is it one of those things where you have been writing songs for a while and then you're like, "Oh, I think this needs to be an album." Um, with Stone Burner and my solo stuff, I it's almost always going in like I'll have a few. Okay, so I don't write songs like I don't write a song and then write

1:26:45a song and then write a song and then write a song. I'll write when I know that I'm getting ready to do something. I'll start blocking out 30 parts of things and then that's my job for a week. And then my next job for the next week is making those into a verse. And then my next job for that is giving all of them choruses. And then so I end up with a whole bunch of stuff and I figure out where they go. so that yeah I mean for that it's I I'm always working towards something like that. Recently I did a concept album that was a whole other thing where I was

1:27:16definitely like okay this is the story arc that I need to do and so to figure that part out um that was a really completely not my normal thing. It's like a straight up concept rock record like like rock and roll like which I almost never do. So that was um figuring out how to make that work and flow and kind of having the and knowing the story was interesting enough and and and trying to explain relatively complex concepts in that mode was a real weird experience. Um, with ego, we tend to start out with a concept. And once we kind of can nail what the concept is for the thing, uh,

1:27:58we're usually pretty good. Um, and that's just figuring out which songs make the most sense music like to do with it. Um, because I'll always have lots of things just sitting around, lots of parts. Uh, so just kind of figuring out and I'm super difficult. I the the songwriting process is my least favorite thing. I love writing poetry. I love writing short stories. I I hate writing songs. It just so frustrating. It's so frustrating to me. So, luckily, he takes, you know, he just does so much of it and then eventually I can come in with the lyrics and I can, you know, help pull it, you know, get

1:28:40something that I'm not immediately like, I hate this, like record like one line of vocals and I'm like, no, I hate it. So, um, it I don't want to be like that. I don't I don't know why it's so hard for me. I don't know. Um, you know, I know I'm a nightmare for him to work with, you know, until once it gets rolling, then it's fine. It's just getting over that hurdle. It's getting those first couple of, you know, parts down or first couple songs or whatever. And then it seems it's like, okay, now we've now we figured it out. But um you know I I kind

1:29:16of make the joke about being that nightmare, but you know it's not funny and it's not fun. Like I don't want to be like that, you know, but I want to stop doing this either. So, but it's just it's such a a long and difficult process for me. Well, I've I've averaged one record every three weeks of the last five months. Yeah. So I I write when I'm stressed and because of me uh I've been very stressed and so it's been a for me that's been like I'm not going to say they're cathartic because I'm not talking about m as much about all the stuff going on in the world but it it

1:29:57gives me something to do other than focus on any of that stuff. So that's been great. I mean, like I've got one, two, three, four more records that haven't come out yet that are done essentially. So, wow. Yeah. I mean, it's it's so different because I feel like in a song it's like it's it's very condensed like you're as opposed to like a a poem or a short story, it seems like you have very little amount of time to to share a message, right? So, and you have to have the hook. you have to have the thing that you know the line that people are going to remember. So you're

1:30:35you're using up space there as well and it's a it's a vital part of the song and it's great but yeah like I I if you know with poetry you're condensing and then with lyrics you're condensing even more. Um though for me the lyric writing I I should say it isn't writing the lyrics is not that hard for me. Like once again once I kind of have my idea. It's the vocal um melodies. It's it's the musical part of it that I just can't I just can't get my head wrapped around it easily. Yeah. You know and I would you know I I am a

1:31:13musician. I was a musician. I played piano my whole life you know. So it's and I took music theory when I was in school. Like so it's not like I don't know music. It's just I'm I'm just stuck somehow. I'm just stuck. I think you know maybe when you do something for a very long time. Well obviously not you but when some people do something don't try and do what I do. Well no and that's not even the thing. Um, you know, it's just, you know, sometimes it's it's hard to find that spark again, but you know, it's there. So, it's like I don't want to I don't want

1:31:56to stop looking for it because I know it's there. Just starting to get my hands on it. So, yeah, it's it's so interesting. The Muse. I feel like The Muse is such a It's a beastie. Um, you know, because, uh, I I find for myself that if I I try to control it too much, it does the opposite. Does it? Oh, you can't force it. Nope. Well, that's when everybody's, you know, has because we haven't put out an Ego album in many years now. And, you know, it's it's a fair question, you know, when are you going to put something new out? And the only thing I

1:32:34can say is that I just I'm not going to do it until it's not having to be forced because I just can't I it it'll be out when it's out. I have to find it and I can't fake my way through that. Like that's just not something I can phone in. Um and even if I could do it, it wouldn't be genuine. But I don't even think I could force myself to do it. Like even if I wanted to fake my way through it, I don't think I could. So yeah. So, you know, I I don't mean to sound snippy with people when they ask,

1:33:08but the answer is always like, "You'll get it when you get it. You'll get it when she gets it." I mean, it's not it's not like this this this thing that we're we're specifically keeping from you. We're not coming to your town because of you know what you did. Um, you know, it's look, the best I can, you know, the best we can offer, it's like, look, we're on the road an awful lot. I've got a whole bunch of [ __ ] that's come that's out that like, you know, that's something, you know. So, and we have a lot of songs, so we do switch up the the

1:33:43sets from tour to tour. Like, we're not going to do the exact same set. You're not going to see the exact same show every time. So Rick will be with us, but you know, he's just part of the package, so you'll have to be okay with like we don't like it either, but it's in the contract. And no, I mean, I think it's it's it is um it is quite the juggle. I I also do the tour planning and managing myself, so it's like um it is a lot of hats to wear. So, um, and when you're on the road a lot, um, it is very difficult to

1:34:16like be like, "Okay, I'm going to switch off the side of my brain." And then, you know, when we first met, I remember immediately feeling like you and I were like kind of cut from the same cloth with all this stuff like, you know, you know, everybody's got their roles and I I was like, "Oh, okay. There's somebody I think I see like a lot of parallels here." So, yeah. So that that's why we definitely need to endeavor to do more stuff together. I am I am happy that we're doing um uh Cats Fixation up in Detroit. That's going to be really special. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

1:34:55It was uh you know I think it's going to be one of those things where I think I think everybody needs it. We all need to be there together. So yeah, it's going to be very very special. And I've already decided there's there are things that I wanted to say on stage that I just don't think I'm going to be able to because there's just no I can't even say them in my head without getting teared up. So I'm not sure what's going to what's going to come out. But I think just by virtue of being there, it'll be a really wonderful thing. So yeah, I was

1:35:29chatting with um Ken about that um from Emaranth and um he wrote they wrote a song uh Remembering Cat and he was like I don't know if I'm going to be able to make it through the song and I was like well we'll all help you sing it. I think it helps to have buddies. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I' I've definitely played um you know my share of shows where it's like impossible to sing without it's like when your throat closes up there's no sound that will come out but you can't help but feel those emotions you know so well that's honest that's real I mean

1:36:04like you know that's I would rather that than than you know like you do the thing over and over and it becomes this wrote thing so it's it's like as as I'm sure you know, it's like reminding yourself to be present and be in that moment and finding those emotional looks, you know, even as somebody who's not singing or or when I'm singing with Stone Burner or whatever, it's figuring out like how to how to tap back into to those feelings. Like there there's this one song I was doing a while back and it was very much about loss and and all of that stuff.

1:36:40And I was up there and, you know, a grown ass dude half in tears trying to get through this song about, you know, a wolf half a half mile high wolf dying, you know. So, it's like, but but you have to tap into that in order for it to be honest and and right. And if you're not giving that to the audience, you know, it's, you know, it's it's just doesn't it's just not the right thing to do. If you can get there, you know, it's the thing the right thing to do. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's um well, I mean, every artist is different, right? And and but I feel

1:37:18like with especially you two um you know, going back to the authenticity, I think that that you know, the people that are resonating with your art, with your music, um they want that. They want that authenticity, you know. And and uh like, you know, myself personally, it's like so inspiring. It's something I want to support. I'm like, we need more artists out there that are expressing in such an authentic way. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's not to disparrage like other kinds of music that are maybe a little bit more removed from the that sort of raw emotion and especially in our scene with, you know,

1:37:55any kind of electronic music, you're already sort of putting this um you know, uh inorganic element out, which is and and it's awesome and that's great. So yeah, this is not me in any way saying that there's something less valid or less important about that um method of of you know singing, writing songs, performing, whatever. But um you know it's there's something really wonderful about sort of burying your soul. You know, it sounds cliche, but it's but it really is. It's like you're just and and it was the same with the spoken word. I was and that was actually scarier than getting up to sing. um ever was for me because I'm

1:38:38like, "Wow, it's just me standing up here with a book in front of me and I am reading to you these intensely like dark uncomfortable things, you know, and some of them were about me and some of them weren't, but it it didn't even matter. It was just like, wow, I feel really naked up here. This is, you know, so but it but it was good. Like it felt really good to do it. Yeah, you can't coast. That was I was talking to Nathan about that the other day. I was like, you know, it's kind of like the difference between walking and riding. If you're on a bike, you can

1:39:13just like pull up and coast and let the bike carry you. But if you're walking and you stop, you stop. That's it. Like there's no music to keep going. There's nothing. You have to just kind of keep like I I just I just did it for the first time the other day. So that's kind of why I'm I've been thinking about it. you know, I don't have the same level of experience that she does with reading in public, but but kind of for the doing it for the first time, it was noticing the differences and the and the the um where you do have to kind of get to in order

1:39:42to again do it do it in honestly and Yeah. I mean, have you have you had performances where you're like, "Wow, I can't connect to my heart for whatever reason. I'm not connecting." um you know and you have to just kind of Yeah. Yeah. I mean it sucks to do it because you know it just feels like going on autopilot but when I have been sick or I have a lot of um chronic pain stuff. So I feel like sometimes I'm up there and I'm in and out of my body a little bit if something starts to hurt. But I can, you know, the audience won't

1:40:23know like like like there's work shows and there's fun shows and if you're doing the work, you're not they're not going to know it. But yeah, like I think so, you know, either illness or or something painful is happening and that can sort of disconnect me. The only other time that happens is if there is some abysmal sound thing going on like just everything is [ __ ] the bed and it's like I can't hear what's going on and I can't that that can be hard to stay present, you know, then you're almost like I just want to get like I don't even remember the last song I just

1:41:01sang. I just want to get through it. But luckily, it's not often that it's something that that is that bad that it's just it's so bad on stage. Like the sound is so bad on stage that it's distracting. I can't even think about what I'm doing because all I can hear is the fact that I can't hear or the fact that something sounds really bad. So yeah, but other I I don't think that there's ever been another reason why I wasn't present and having that in, you know, that connection like that heart connection like you're saying. I think that's that's really the only time something like that happens. The goal is

1:41:42always to go up there and and become the vehicle for the ideas of the the song or or the whatever it is you're doing, you know, and and you know, just hitting people with hammers kind of just trying to get this through. This is this is this is a real thing. This happened or or you know, even if it didn't really happen, it's still true. Whatever. I had a I had a weird moment during a show recently where I actually added the [ __ ] out and I was just completely I was like I don't even know what verse I'm playing right now. Like I and and that almost never

1:42:16happens. Like I'm usually very very aware of that particular thing being a potential problem. So it doesn't but that and when I snap back into my head I was just like wow. Did I did I give you the look or did No, you didn't notice it. But but um but uh but yeah, I no I absolutely did. No, because my hands were doing their job and that part was fine. But like yeah, it was it was very unusual. I forget lyrics all the time, but it's not because I'm not present. I just forget holes and brain. Just been doing this a long time and I just forget stuff. So

1:42:52luckily he usually knows. Yeah, I'm always singing along. So, I'll look over and be like, "Yes, I don't get upset about it anymore, though. I just it if it is noticeable enough that the audience can tell that I've like I'm messing up the lyrics or I've forgotten them. I just laugh about it. It's Yeah, bring the audience in. Have fun with it. I'm doing my best. I'm not up there drunk. I'm not up there. It's it it's happening for very normal natural understandable reasons and that is just age and you know chronic illness stuff that's kind of messed with my brain a little bit. So I'm just not

1:43:29saying earlier I'm just not as sharp as I used to be with some of this stuff. So um but yeah like I'm not I'm not going to let it upset me on stage and I think when you don't let it upset you then the audience doesn't get upset either. I've never had anybody say, "Oh, I didn't enjoy the show because you forgot some lyrics or you sang it wrong or something." Like, that's silly. Like, that has to be so silly. Like, if that's if that's enough to ruin a show for you. One one of the most elegant help you elegant things she ever did with a

1:44:02screw-up is back when we were touring with that with the Kurszwell and um we were in Hollywood and she sits down at the piano and her hand slips and just falls on the low keys and she's like you know like wait lets it fill it out and she's like all right thank you and got up and walked away. It's like that was my That's what you got. I love it. Yeah. I think your theater background was probably showing. Yeah. I I mean it's it's I was curious like do you guys have any like um like warm-up practices or anything to get you in the zone um to get ready for

1:44:45literally roll out of bed onto stage and start. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the only thing that I like I I I don't need much time, but right before we go on stage, I have to get away from people enough to not talk for a few minutes. I just I can't like be in a conversation and have somebody talking and talking and talking and it's like I need that just a couple of minutes of just like let me just stand here and be in my body and you know be ready. But you know, literally it's like it's like 5 minutes before we go on stage that I

1:45:21have to do that. I have one thing that I do, but it doesn't have to do with being on stage. Exactly. I hate being there and having a one people are coming in because I just don't want to. It's like I'd rather just walk out on stage and see if there's five people there or 100 or whatever instead of like being around and watching them slowly come in or whatever. So, I like try and go out for a walk uh for like half an hour or something, which is just good to get some extra exercise anyway. But, you know, it lets me kind of see where we're

1:45:46at and kind of get back into my own internal space after setting everything up. But, I mean, other than that, yeah, know I've I've done shows where I was napping backstage and just a roll up and go. Um, I think I it's funny how, and I'm sure you experienced this, where where you do it so much that it's really the difference between here and there is not is nothing anymore. Like there's an old George Carlin record. He was like, "Oh, well, here I am. I was back there, now I'm here." Um, you know, it always feels like that to me. It's like like there's no I don't know. I I've always

1:46:22kind of had no shame. So, like it's always just been like, "Okay, well, we're here we are together and you're going to see this and and whatever happens is what's going to happen, you know?" And like I said, as long as I don't fall down, I'm usually pretty good. So, and I haven't taken any artifacts from Indian burial grounds in a while. Last time that that was when the last time I fell down was when I did that. And that was my I shouldn't have done it and I was wrong. I know. I told you it was it was the wrong thing to have done. Told you not to take it. And

1:46:48this is actually we're not even making that up. It's a true story. It wasn't a burial. a burial ground, but it was it was it was a monument. Yeah. In the desert. And I said, "Look, I we get in the van and I'm like, there's there's a skull over there." Like, "What the hell's a skull for?" Oh, it wasn't a skull. What did you Oh, it was like a bolt or something. Some piece of Yeah, like a nail or a bolt. And it was like on the dashboard. And I was like, "Where did that come from?" And he's like, "Oh, I I picked." And I was

1:47:12like, "Have you never seen a movie? Have you not I mean, have like you have cursed us now. like this was not okay for you to take. So yeah. Yeah. And that that that night I jumped up and I I wasn't using the wireless so I came down on the guitar cable and it rolled out from under me. You know what? I managed to pull off the whole roll fall back onto my back roll back and jump back up before she noticed. So that was pretty cool. But uh yeah. So yeah, don't do it. Cautionary tales. Yes. Yeah. It's nice, you know, um it's nice though

1:47:52not really getting stage fright. I don't think any of us have stage fright. Like it just doesn't I mean if we you know if we're in front of a a really big crowd like a really really big crowd or if it's you know and especially if it's the kind of thing where they're not necessarily just there for us you know like we're part of a like a convention or something. You're opening for the damned. You're the thing between the fans and the games, right? Like, oh, oh, well, when like the first time we opened for the Dead Milkman, because I was like, this is not our crowd. Oh my god.

1:48:24Like, what do we And we did have, it was in um what was DC was the first one? Yeah. 9:30 Club in DC. And um you know, so we have a lot of DC friends and and fans and stuff. So, they were all there. And the nice thing about like the older DC scene is that they they all love punk too. So, like they were equally coming, you know, not just to support us because they're our friends, but they're like, "Yeah, the dead milkman, that's awesome." But, you know, the rest of the however many hundreds and hundreds of people that were in there were not in there to see

1:48:57us and were not like big fans of, you know, whatever genre we fit into. But it was great. It was great. It was It was, know, I don't know. Nobody booed. Nobody, you nobody walked out. Like it was fine. People bought stuff. Um, but I, that was like one time like in recent history that I remember feeling nervous. I definitely was like, I hope this wasn't a bad idea. But those guys are so great. And you know, they were very much about like, hey, like, you know, this isn't a bill where the venue just threw this band on with us. Like the these are our

1:49:44friends and we like their music and they're playing with us. So there was sort of this like, you know, don't don't get shitty. Like these are, you know, these are our people. So that made it a little bit easier. Now it's great. Now I don't feel weird about it. So that's awesome. I mean it's I imagine like with just you know all the experiences you've had like you said it's like you put less pressure on yourself and you know taking away the element of like perfection where you're like okay just being who I am right yeah also like look you don't have to like me as a person and that's cool like

1:50:25I get like like I'm I'm I recognize I'm an acquired taste but you can't take away from what I do like the stuff that I make is it's good. It's you don't have to like it, but you can't say it's not technically good. And I think once you kind of reach this point in your in your life where it's just like look, I I whatever this part doesn't matter to me. That part as long as you recognize the skill involved in it or the quality the innate quality of whatever it is, that's that's all I really care about. Like like I'm beyond that it's I can't

1:50:56control any of it. But but knowing being okay with that like like you can't take away the fact that that I'm proud of what I do and I think Mhm. I like that. I love that. Oh, you Yeah. No, but ultimately like in the end, Donna and and a few other people, their opinions of what I do are really the only ones that matter and and everything like I I've I was thinking about this recently because, you know, with some of the solo stuff that I put out where I've kind of like I just I don't care. Like if it if it's popular, it gets very popular. Hey,

1:51:30that's [ __ ] cool. But honestly, like I I'm just making this stuff and if you know a dozen people it resonates with them, awesome. I'm making it because it's what I do. You can't make anything for other people because how would you possibly ever be able like there's always going to be somebody who loves it and there's always going to be somebody who thinks it sucks. Yeah. So, you can't that's just not I mean you can you know try to figure out what audience you want to gear your stuff towards but yeah once it already exists you can't make anything kind of like how you know it

1:52:02doesn't matter you know how good your stuff is or how much you want to do it. You're not guaranteed. You're lucky. You're lucky if you get that audience. You're lucky if you get people into what you're doing because there's so many people out there and there's so much, you know, stuff to consume and there's so, you know, it's like it's this huge thing. You're so lucky if anyone pays and but you, you know, like you've always like you're not owed that either. Like it's you put out good stuff. If you make the best stuff that you can make, make the stuff that you want to make and

1:52:41as honestly as possible. Hopefully and hopefully you know people will notice and I mean that's that that like there I don't feel like there's anything else. No, I think that I think the audience knows when you are manufacturing something because you want to be popular. Like I think that you know there there are bands out there and you can watch them change what they do, you know, every record or whatever to try and tune in with whatever the current thing is. And to me that's not art, that's product. It's it's like it's it's vanity. It's like, you know, your your goal is to put this thing out. And

1:53:15I don't know, the idea that somebody would ever look at or listen to anything that I make and immediately go, hm, I wonder what this person's like. Like that should be the last thing anybody ever thinks about is like like I'm just this vehicle that that's where that stuff comes from. So if you're putting this stuff out and your concern is you want them to know you know you as a person so you're you're getting the the the spotlight on you not the thing not the stuff you make but you that to me is is is probably the the biggest sin in my little on my little list of

1:53:50horrible things you can do is you know to to sell people product when as and but telling them it's art. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I imagine it's like what you're saying, the letting go um and not attaching the the uh what is it? The outcome, I guess. It's it seems very liberating like there's a freedom, I imagine, and just giving yourself that permission and just being like, you know, I'm just going to create and yeah, it's perfectly fine to, you know, work on those business skills. I mean, obviously, if that's if you want this to be your business, you have to be able to do that. You have to learn that stuff.

1:54:31But, you know, it it's so hard to do and you just don't get any guarantee of anything panning out. I mean, so yeah, I mean, you know, I I worry, you know, we have bills, we have debt, we have all kinds of stuff that we have to take care of um that we do need to make money for. So, we do the best we can with it. Um, so that is a worry, but it isn't going to inform what I'm making. I'm I'm going to write the things that I write and I'm going to, you know, sing the songs that I sing and, you know, that's and and just hope

1:55:12it works. Just hope, you know, that's that's all I can do. Like, I'm not going to change that up, you know, because we have bills to pay. I I have a friend who's an editor and she's done stuff that probably a number of you people have seen and we were talking one time and she was getting really upset because she was coming into the process. She was like, "I just don't know if it's good." And I was like, "That's the fun part. You never get to know it's good." All you ever as the person making the thing, all you ever get to know is if it's

1:55:40functions. You can have your checklist of like, you know, does does this work technically? Is, you know, or are the dynamics in the painting right? by the is the EQ, you know, was the bass doing what it's supposed to be doing? Can you hear the lyrics? Um, does it do they say what you want to say? Like, you can know that it functions and you can like it and you can say, "Wow, this is really cool and I think it's really good." But I mean, you know, I've done thousands of paintings and I've done stuff where like I'm I'm just like, "Oh, this is going to

1:56:07sell right away." And like tumble weeds, you know, and then like I'll do something that I just was bored and I was watching TV and I knock it out and then people go into a bidding war about it. Like you just there's no way of predicting it and I I don't even really try anymore. Like I I you know, like I was saying how I'll make all of those write all those songs at the same time or I'll do all this artwork all of them at the same time. And there's kind of this exercise in um in uh removal of of self of ego with

1:56:38that because like none of them can be your favorites if they're all in the same place. Uh and that that's cool because that way you don't end up situations like I've written four songs. I need six more but these are all really good and if I write these and they're better then that's going to kind of be sad for these songs but if they're not you know as good as these songs and that's a problem too. So this way keeping them all at the same level, you're able to let them all do their own thing as they develop. Um, you know, so it's it's just trying to remove

1:57:07that that like everyone I everyone gets the amount of work that needs to get done and it's as polished as I'm going to polish it. It's all, you know, it gets the focus, but that way you're not of putting more pressure on yourself that doesn't necessarily need to be there or or you know, just trying to not and not listening to what the song needs to be. You know, it's like I, you know, we never we've never tried to write to genre. We just write the thing and these are the tools we happen to use for it and how it ends up is what the song is.

1:57:44uh as opposed to we're going to write an industrial dance song, you know, or whatever. Like um and even with like Stone Burners, yes, we're it's an industrial project. It's really [ __ ] noisy and that's cool, but I'm also not really worried about like and now it's time for industrial dance or or whatever, you know? It's like it just that that just happens to be the language that I'm using for what that Yeah. I mean, I think that's like you were saying, it's it is impossible to know how what you put out is g how it's going to be received. Um, and and it is wonderful when it does resonate with

1:58:19people where you're like, "Oh, somebody gets it. There's there's a you know, there's a resonance and a connection and you know, you find your kindred spirits that way, you know." Um, yeah, it never gets old hearing, you know, having somebody say that, you know, this song or this book or whatever meant something to them. Like it I have never had that feeling of like, oh yeah, yeah, whatever. It's like, no, it's it it feels it's so touching every time that happens. And even for 20, you know, 25 years we've been doing this, like it's it it means something to me every time, every single person that says it.

1:59:01And even if it's not like a direct translation, like I'll have people come up and say, "Oh, well, this is what this piece means to me." Or whatever. And you know, I'm like, that's great. It's a world away from what I was thinking about when I was doing it, but that's totally cool because this is just as valid an experience for you. Like I would rather you have that than if I tell you what it means to me, which is generally it was the thing I was making. M um you know, I would rather you have that experience because, you know, and I've had people come up with ideas I'm

1:59:29just like that's brilliant. Like that makes way more sense than what I was thinking about with this or or whatever. Um and that's always a very cool experience, you know, and it's like I want that. I want them to have their like you put the thing out, it's like here's the road and you can go anywhere on this road. I'm just defining the edges of it. So, it's always neat seeing where those where they go. As long as it's not like, oh, this is all about white power. I'm like, well, no, no, that's that's Yeah. I mean, you know, do you do you ever share like um if people ask

2:00:03specifically where they're like, "What what did this song mean?" or this particular piece of art, is that something that you do share or is that something where you kind of Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I mean, I don't Yeah. I can't really think of an example of where I wouldn't, you know, if I'm going to put it out there, then I'm putting it out there. So, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And really like you can if you look at ego like Mrs. Output, I mean, you can chart our marriage through it if you know what to look. No, seriously, you can you can like the there's all kinds of things

2:00:36charting different events, things like that in it. and um you know so like it's some people going to go on some deep dives now good that's that's how we get you but I mean it's uh like hey there demon is about that one time where we were um what I think you might have had enough now okay see sometimes I just start talking Yeah. Well, I I absolutely appreciate like how how much you're you know, you've been sharing like you were talking earlier about how you know you you have had the experience of having guidance from other artists you know and you know I know

2:01:26it's something that you know for aspiring artists you know in in whatever medium like we were talking about to hear about um both of you just being able to navigate your lives in in a way that you're able to like create um you know put yourselves out there and and doing it very courageously like I think to to be able to share you know like little pieces of your heart and soul it's like you're like here is my platter of heart right so it's so hard for our heart it's your Yes. Yes. Yeah. But um you know it's so appreciated like how how giving you both

2:02:06are um about like sharing you know your experiences and you know and the wisdom behind it because that you know doing it like you said for 25 years you know you do know what you're doing. I imagine so. Yeah. We can't really tell you how to get famous because we're not. But we can tell you how to keep doing this for a very long time. We can tell you how to stay in the game, you know, keep it. I One of the things I'm incredibly flattered by is that this audience that we've got and it's stuck a lot of these people have stuck with us for this entire time that

2:02:41we've been doing this. And that's that's amazing to me. That's that's incredibly flattering. Um yeah, you know, I I I know so many bands where it's like they're the flavor of the week and then they the audience moves on to this other thing. And maybe some people have done that with us but but but we have had this core that you know gets into the art and music and the writing and stuff and the things. Yeah. Very very good people in our audiences. Mhm. Yeah. I think that the community and the supporters around are really what make it possible. um you know it's like at at

2:03:19you know obviously whatever level but if you're doing things independently or you know um like you're saying like at you know you were like I it's not that we can get you famous but you can actually do the thing you know and and what a gift to you know to be able to understand that to know like oh it's possible um I grew up in a small town in Texas myself and um I had no idea Yeah. What was possible? Um, I wasn't I didn't have a lot of exposure to like, you know, a lot of independent art, things like that. It wasn't until I moved to LA

2:03:55that I had like, you know, a broader scope. Um, and so for somebody from a smaller town where I'm like, what? You can actually do this. It's possible. I mean, that's very inspiring. Yeah. One of the coolest things I ever saw, we were in Decatur and uh Donna gets off stage and these two girls come up to her and they were like, "We we've never seen a female fronted band before." Ever, you know? Yeah. It was an all ages show. And yeah, I mean, of course, they knew that existed, but they had never been to a show with a with a a female, you know,

2:04:32fronted. So, yeah, that was I don't know. That was kind of cool. I was like, I was their first experience with that and I think it made them feel like, you know, oh, this might be something that I could do. So, yeah, definitely cool. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I I just want to thank you both for for first of all your time, like taking the time to to chat and to share and to just be just such wonderfully inspiring people that, you know, show show so many of us like, hey, it's possible. Oh, thank you. Well, you guys are so great, too. And I love that

2:05:09you're doing this. This is such a a fun project. Like, that's really awesome. And I'm so excited to see you in person. Me, too. Me, too. I'm so excited. Yeah. I'm like I don't know. I feel like it's going to be just a beautiful reunion. Um it's going to be a beautiful night of friends, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So, um I just I wanted to um say to everybody that's been watching, um thank you so much for for your time and your support. Um please support these two wonderful artists. Um there are many many places to find them online. I'm going to start with egolikenessband.com,

2:05:48but are there other places that you prefer? Um well you can find almost everything because that will repost all the other projects but you know we we're on Facebook camp yeah band yeah all the projects are on band camp uh my um you can find my my graphic novel at redand toothandclaw.art which is a thing now um I've got my own little label that that everything I do goes out on called Wolfcore Records uh Stone Burner official on Band Camp. uh with COP uh and I've been putting a bunch of solo stuff out. steven and ego likeness is still with Metropolis. So that's the other another

2:06:30place you can find our stuff. But yeah, otherwise I I I pretty much am only on Facebook. Uh I don't like the other platforms. So yeah, awesome. Well, um thank you both so much again. Um many many loves. I can't wait to see you very soon. Yes. Well, you have safe travels and we'll all get there safely and we'll all have a great time. So, thank you. Thank you Yes, it's been such a joy truly. Um and thank you all online. Sending much much love. Um we will see you next time.