Rodney Orpheus of The Cassanda Complex, in full

0:00I think looking for me to produce this album as well. So yeah, it's I'm still keeping busy and we're planning to go back on the road again, but hopefully not for for maybe in a year or a year and a half because yeah, the last year was I Yeah, we were we were traveling a Is that the longest tour that you've Um probably the longest on time, but not hopefully not for maybe a year or a year and a half. Oh, sorry about that. Uh, no problem. Uh, we've done a lot of shows. I mean, we used to tour uh back in the ' 90s we would tour like

0:41we would do maybe 20 shows in a month. Um, with we we once did I did we did a tour once where I I just saw the old tour dates the other day and it was like marveling that we did something like 27 shows in one month at one point which is like just insane. I mean, there's no way I could do that anymore. But yeah, we were we were just bum bum bum bum bum bum bum all the time for months on end. We would tour really hard um all all across Europe. Uh but yeah, we're we we tend to like space it out a little bit more now.

1:20yeah, it's it's interesting because I find that when you're on the road for long periods of time, I feel like life becomes very singular and very present in a way, right? Oh, it's it become it's a different world. I mean, it's it's a very dangerous world to be in because and I found out after our first really big tour, I came back after like I think we were on the road for like 3 months and I came back and I remember sitting in in my on my couch in the front room thinking I'm hungry now and then not understanding that I actually had to go and prepare some food

1:56because somebody had always brought me food every day. you know, every time I was hungry, there was food there. And you know, and psychologically it's it's it can be it's it's not very healthy because literally every single person you meet are there because of you, are there to do something for you. Um you know, you've got a tour manager who's doing something for you. You go to the venue and there's a promoter who's got stuff there for you. You've got roies who are there to carry your stuff. You've got the audience who are there to tell you how wonderful you are. And that's wonderful. It is a great thing.

2:33It's a really great thing, but it's extraordinarily unhealthy um to your ego. Uh and so, you know, I had to keep on reminding myself, hey, you know, it's it's like that old Roman generals when they used to um throw parades in their honor through Rome, they would have a slave standing behind them whispering and they were remember you are mortal. Um, so it was like, yeah, you got to have that voice in the back of your head going, "Hey, you're just a you're just a dumbass Marland dude." Um, uh, so yeah. Or there's a classic story from David Bo David Bowie story. you know the ashes to ashes video uh from

3:12David Bowie where he's dressed in the clown suit and he's walking along at the beach and uh there's a great story he would tell that when they were shooting that video was very early in the morning in Brighton Beach in England and he they were shooting it and they were setting everything up and he was walking along and they were going he's like and we know Major Tom's a junkie you're stuck up in heavens and they're just shooting it all and they take a break from filming and then they're go going to go back again and some old guy's walking past walking his dog right in the middle

3:40of the camera and uh and they're like, "Hey, you got to get away. We're shooting a video." He's like, "No, I'm live here. I'm going to walk my dog." And then um and the guy goes uh he looks at something and says, "Don't you know who this is?" And the guy looks at David Bowie sitting there in his full makeup and he goes, "Yeah, he's some [ __ ] in a clown suit." Uh and uh and David Boy said afterwards that he thought about that every single day. No matter what happened, he was just like he always would remind himself, "Yeah, I'm just some [ __ ] in a

4:15Um yeah. Well, how do you stay grounded when you How do you stay grounded or how do you recover from a tour? Like, are there ways that you go about it when you get back? That's a great question. Um, yeah. I mean, I don't know. Um, try and do, you know, go out and work in the garden and do the dishes and do like normal stuff. I think it's actually important. Um, hang out with my friends, play video games online, get get pawned by some 16-year-old kid. Uh, um, and and things like that, you know, um, I think are really important. I mean, it's great to be a rock star, as

5:02you well know, I'm sure. Um, but yeah, it's important to keep a sense of Yeah, absolutely. I find that the routine um like really helps in terms of staying Yeah, absolutely. Well, you've got to break that routine of like when you're on tour. Well, it's almost like a very very mild form of PTSD because you know when in people who get PTSD frequent like when soldiers come back from war, they used to think they got PTSD because of all the horrors they saw. But they couldn't figure out why some people got it really badly and some people didn't. And then they realized that um actually a lot of

5:41the people who got PSD came from very traumatic homes, home environments. And in fact, what was triggering a lot of the PTSD was not the fact that they'd seen all these horrors of war. It was the fact that during the war, they had people around them who they could depend on. They had a very structured environment like 24/7. They knew what they were doing. They knew where they were. And then when they were thrown back into having depend on themselves into the normal world, that was what was really triggering a lot of the trauma. And so I think there's a very I don't want to like it say that's happens but

6:17it's a very very mild uh kind of thing is like when you're on tour everything is structured. You you you have a big book before you leave what where you're going to be what you're going to be doing. I I know it like quarter past 1 in the afternoon on the 23rd of July. I know exactly where I'm going to be and what I'm going to be doing. And there's no real decision making anymore. you're just there and you have your own support network around you, you know, when you're when you're touring with your band, it's like it becomes like a extended family in a

6:52sense. And then when you lose all that and things are just back to normal everyday stress, that can be very difficult to cope with I think. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um it's funny. I call it like the the post Yeah. post syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very it's a very real thing. It's a very very real thing for sure. Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting because uh you know, I I myself on tour don't get that much sleep. Um Yeah. Really? Yeah. Um and I'm sure for you, especially with um going from country to country, there's a lot of jet lag that's going on as well. So, yeah. Yeah. I was

7:35once jetlagged for two years. Like literally two years long. I didn't sleep. I didn't have a decent night's sleep for two years. That was I ended up in the hospital. It was just horrific. Um it was very physically stressful. Um but yeah, there's not a lot of sleep, but there's a lot of excitement and fun, so you know, it balances out. I still love it. It does. Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that um like touring in your early career versus touring now, like have you have you just sort of learned along the way? Um or was it something that you kind of intuitively knew like how to I guess

8:17sustain yourself because I feel like there's some people that just get burnt out on touring. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and I' I've been burned out. I mean, we had to learn a lot and um there's very little there's very little you you know there's very very little literature on how to go touring, you know, the dummies guide to rock and roll. Um though there is a great book now called Tour Smart by Martin Atkins. I don't know if you know this book. Wonderful book and Martin's a really great guy. I love him to death. Uh and his book Tour Smart should be, you know,

8:50compulsor compulsory reading for anybody going on a tour. It it's brilliant. Um, and yeah, and there's I mean, one of the things we learned was uh and and I think this is going to come as a shock to a lot of people out there is one of the the rules that we have of the road is no drugs, no alcohol. Um, we I just don't allow drugs and alcohol at all anymore. And for most I'm sure the musicians out there going, "Wait, what?" Um but uh that became a really big deal for us because you know people were just you know after every show on the writer you

9:25here two bottles of whiskey a couple of bottles of vodka go away drink it all and people would and uh you know do that for 3 months every day for 3 months and you're not going to be able to function and that's what happened. So we ended up like being very strict and saying this is a workplace, you know, this is our work. We have to survive. We have to be healthy and and so we we adopted started eating very healthy, you know, and uh on the rider and making sure we had comfortable places to sleep and stuff like that because it it rapidly be you

10:00know having a nice hotel bed is not a luxury. it becomes a necessity after a while because you do need to sleep what you can. Um and so we we started becoming a lot more careful in who we what we were doing. Um um because I saw too many people get seriously burned out or end up in rehab and it's not fun. Yeah, it's true. It's true. And um I feel like the enjoyment factor goes up when you feel good. Um yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it feels good to feel good. Yeah, I think you can sometimes get used to being in a certain state. Um you know,

10:44and sometimes you don't know what that feels like, but um when you discover that um I think it's one of those things where you're like, why would I go back? So yeah. Um I was wondering um cuz I, you know, I I myself have never played any shows in Europe. Um um Wow. you're really missing out. It's so much better than the USA. Trust me. What would you say is better? Like, what are the differences? Um well certainly for the for the the genre and the the vague genre thing that we exist within that gothic industrial alternative postpunk whatever you want to call it uh scene is is much

11:30more professional in Europe than it is here especially in Germany Belgium Scandinavia it's a much much more professional scene and there's many many many more people uh willing to go out there and spend their money on you and come to see your shows and um there's it's a much more relaxed atmosphere. I mean, we can I mean, I mean, with the Cassandra complex, we never really did that well in the USA. So, I'm prejudice. We never had a breakthrough there like we had in in European countries. Um um but here I always find it like um here it very much reflects the the wider political and economic idea that you

12:16know there there are some people at the very high top and then there's an awful lot of people at the very low bottom and there's very little in between. So if you're doing any kind of alternative and strange and experimental anything that getting from there to there is almost impossible. It's really difficult and it always has been but it that's even more exaggerated now than it ever was before. Um and that's also happening in other places but uh but in Europe there's much more of a middle ground that you can inhabit. I mean, you can make a living being without being a superstar and here

12:57that's almost impossible and it's still very difficult in Europe as well. Um, but uh but you know like and like things like the festival circuit. I mean in Europe you've got so many great festivals. Um you get a festival like we have Gothic Triumph and Leipig that happens every May and that's got like 30,000 Goths take over the entire city. And it's not just like a stage in a field somewhere or whatever like literally some we've got Gothic Triff is the whole city. Every venue in the city from the smallest pub to the state opera house is is running Goth industrial shows. Um like all day long for a for a

13:40long weekend. Um and you know all the the public transport is free. uh all the taxis are playing uh you know are playing Sisters of Mercy or Front 242 um when you get in the cab. Um it's just a it's a whole experience. You don't get that here. I mean you just don't. Now having said that Latin America's got a fabulous scene. Latin America is really vibrant and exciting. I mean we did we played we just came back from Mexico, Costa Rica, Chile and Brazil. All those places we were selling out shows. Um, here we can barely get 50 people in a dog. Um, so Latin America is is really

14:20great. They have a fabulous scene. They're amazing people. Yeah, I've heard amazing things. Um, you know, and and I've seen pictures and videos as well. So, definitely a dream on the bucket list for sure. Yeah. But you guys should definitely try and get to Europe and do some festivals over there. Yeah. Let's talk. I'll help you out. Yes, that'd be amazing. Um, yeah. No, it's it's it's so inspiring um to hear about other places in the world um that have such support um you know for for for this kind of music, I guess. Music on the fringes. I don't even know how to describe it, but whatever whatever it is

14:59we do. Yeah. Yeah. We know what we're talking about. Yes. That's really amazing. Um, so going back to the origin story, um, you were you were in Leeds. Um, and I I you know, playing around Europe. Um, and then you came to the US. Mhm. Yeah. I live in LA right now. Mhm. And um so like when you're playing in the US, are there places like that you particularly enjoy playing like larger cities or have you tried some of like the smaller? Oh, we've only we I think we've only ever played like maybe 10 dates in the US in our entire career. I mean on the last

15:45tour we did we did the Cowways Festival in Chicago which was obviously great. It's a that's a great festival and um Jason and Kelly who run that are great people and they've done so much for the scene and uh and it was really fun to play that show and people loved it. It was I was it was really gratifying. It was the only big show we've ever done in the US. Everything else has just been small clubs like we did like we played in Portland and Long Beach and we played in Berkeley I think as well a couple of other places and in the past we've done

16:17New York we did Minneapolis. Um but honestly I don't really care. I mean um the the one thing I've learned in touring around the world multiple times is everybody's the goddamn same no matter where you go. Um there's there's you know there's small cultural differences but people are people. Um and uh and uh it's always it's always great. I mean it doesn't matter who you are where you come from. When you come to the show and you love my music it's like yeah what you know that's all that counts. Um really um so I I couldn't possibly say that one is better or more interesting or better than the others.

17:02Um, and the other thing is like, you know, one thing I uh I used to hate when when we first started, people would be like, you know, I'd play a festival, whatever, and you see a band come out going, "Oh man, that was a [ __ ] audience." And I'd be like, "No, I mean, they paid good money to come to your show." Um, anyone who pays money to come to my show, I mean, if you can't go out there and entertain them when they've already paid bought a ticket, then that's your problem. You know, no one comes to a show wanting to have a bad time. And if

17:35you can't give them a good time, then you're to blame. You're the musician, not the audience. Um, so there's no such thing as a bad audience. There's only people who don't know how to do their job properly. And I take that really seriously. Um, so and and so when I'm on that stage, you know, I do feel as ridiculous as it might sound, I feel it's my duty to make sure that everybody there is, uh, that I'm touching emotionally touching every person in the audience because if I'm not, then I'm not doing my job. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I I've you know I I definitely feel the same like

18:18it really doesn't matter like audience size at all. Right. No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't It doesn't matter if I'm playing to 10 people or 10,000 people, they'll still get the same show. Yeah. Absolutely. Um I I was curious. Um I saw this really amazing video. I I have not gotten to experience the Cassandra Complex live yet. Um but I saw this beautiful live video. I think you were in Germany. Um, and it was incredible like seeing the lighting and and um I was wondering. Yes. Yes. Was that was that uh programmed by you or was there Wow. Yeah, we have the the we have our

18:58invisible member Martin um who uh who's been with us for 37 years or something now. He does our lighting on on our video show. and Paul and I programmed the the videos that are running in the background. So, we we always have because right now we're uh we change the lineups change the live lineup changes a lot over time. Right now, it's just two of us on tour uh most of the time, which is and when we first started thinking of just going on stage with two of us, I'm like, this is going to be so boring watching two guys just stand there with some synthesizers. It's

19:32like the most boring thing in the world. So, we've got to make it more interesting. So, um, we we have a big video screen and we program all the videos are programmed for every song and they're all queued up and it's and and then we have our normal lighting rig, but we also have a bunch of lasers as well. Um, we we went to see Hawkwind, who are still on tour, one of my favorite bands from the 70s. They're still on tour and Paul and I saw them in England u about a year and a half ago and they had these and we were like, we

20:02need this. We need the psychedel. got to go completely psychedelic. So, we went out and bought a bunch of lasers, which was not cheap. Uh, and then programmed them all up. So, we we take all that with us and and so, um, yeah, when we do the shows, especially when we played the USA, we didn't because we just couldn't afford to get send the lasers over. It was so expensive. Um, but when we're playing in Europe, yeah, we we all we have a lot all all the time because we want to make sure people get a really really impressive show and they get you get

20:35your money's worth when you come to see the Cassandra complex. Um, yeah, it's it's seriously over the top show. So, we have all the lasers bouncing around all the time. We have the huge videos running it and we run I run around a bit, too. So, um, but, uh, yeah, but yeah, we we we want to make I mean, I go to so many shows and it's like just a bunch of people standing there going, you know, it's like they look like they're washing their car or something. It's like, I'm not interested in watching that. Um, you know, yeah, I I' I've heard that said before.

21:15um that you know if I wanted to just listen to the album, I would listen to the album, but when I get away show Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I just wanted to take a moment to say hello to our friends in the stream. Thank you'all so much for for joining us. Um and uh K Mags, by the way, says hello Rodney. Um and Nevermore is saying that uh they love the scene in Latin America. That's that's awesome. Mhm. Uh would definitely love to go there as well. Um yeah. So I was wondering like you know when when you have thought of the visual show um like is that something

21:59like again like like what kind of a show did you have like 40 years ago in the Ironically not all that different than we have now. Just much cheaper. Um, no, from the beginning we were very interested in multimedia and in fact the very first shows we ever did in Leeds weren't even the Cassand weren't even advertised as the Cassandra complex. We used to do um these big multimedia events that would like go on for like the whole day or whatever. And we would have very early analog video technology and all sorts of weird things. And we would have um other artists and video uh come along and do lots of interesting

22:44stuff. So, you never knew what you were going to get. We had we'd have at least three or four acts running that were all sorts of different things and um and we did these incredible sort of performance art things and uh we did that that was how we started. We did that for quite a long time and then eventually it because that was just we couldn't take that that kind of thing on tour especially back then because of techn each each show took us weeks to prepare and we couldn't really tour it. Um and so we started getting more rock and roll more we became more of a

23:20standard rock and roll band. We had, you know, guitar. We had a couple of guitar players in the basement and and we and so we we became much more of a traditional uh rock act in in our inner performances or in the in in the in the music kind of thing. So, we've kind of gone back. One of the reasons why we did this 40th anniversary tour the way we did is because we went back around to just Paul and I, the two founder members and doing this kind of multimedia show and we did a lot of the very early material and we even um got we've even

23:54just been collecting up some of the old synthesizers and things we had back in the early days. Uh and a lot of it now we have software versions of it that we've programmed. Uh and so it's like we're redoing almost we wanted to recapture how we started and and have that vibe but transmuted through the 40 years of experience in between. So, so yeah, it's it's very much uh the original still the original philosophy of the band made manifest now through what we have available nowadays which so for a band starting out um that's inspiring to know when when people come to me and say

24:43what's what's the best what's advice you can give for a young band starting out my usual advice is don't um it's a terrible thing. Go and do something more useful with your life. Um which usually means that uh if if you're if you got disheartened by me saying don't do it, then you shouldn't be doing it. But if you go, "Fuck you, Rodney. I'm going to do it anyway." Then maybe maybe that's the right attitude. You know, I used to I uh I' I've taught music technology in college. It was Professor Rodney for a while. And I remember um when uh I had my first

25:20class of students and I came in for the first day. They they'd already been studying for a year. I was doing the second year the final year of their of their school. And uh to get to know them, I said, "Okay, you've got a week to make me a piece of music. I want everybody in this class to make a piece of music in the class for a whole week. All we'll do is make music. You can collaborate. You can work on different things. I just want to know I want you to do you know have something that's recorded acoustically something that's recorded electronically I want some

25:47keyboards you know do I want to see how varied and useful you are and at the end of the week I we spent a day going everyone could present their work and and play their music back and talk about how they did it and so on. So, and the whole class went through the the sec the last day. Everyone presented the work, played the music, we talked about it. And I be like, "Yeah." And uh and then at the end of the day, uh they were like, "So, what do you think?" And I'm like, "Well," and I gave us some up and said like, you know, "Yeah, John, there

26:17you song. Um the song was pretty good. nice guitar playing drum project was you know I go through them and and the said you know I'm very pleasantly surprised in the fact that uh you're all making very good interesting music that I enjoy what the [ __ ] is wrong with you and they were like what and I'd be like you guys are like 18 20 years old you should be making music that I hate you should be making music that I don't understand don't make this [ __ ] that somebody who's old enough to be your parents would like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you and they were all like,

26:52whoa. But it was, you know, it's true. That's some wisdom. Actually, uh I I'm going to segue a bit. Um we had a question from It's All Good 49 on Instagram who was asking um how do you start an album? How do you start an album? Yeah. Yeah. It's only taught by the question of how do you finish it? Um, how do you start an album? Well, that's a really interesting question actually and and still after 40 years and many many albums for myself and other people, I'm still not quite sure I understand the question or the answer. how do you start an album? I mean, the

27:39question is, I mean, do you want to make an album in the first place? Um, you know, I didn't make any albums for about for a whole decade. I didn't make a record at all because I wasn't even sure what an album means anymore. In the age of streaming, does an album even make any sense? Um, you know, um, if you look at the statistics um, from someone like Spotify, most people, and by far mo I mean by most I mean by far most people never make it past halfway through an uh most people will listen to, you know, you if you listen, I'm sure you've seen

28:15this if you look at your own streams, the first two or three songs on the record will get a lot more streams than the last on the record. And it's not just because the first tracks on the record are necessarily better, but most people just don't have the patience to go listen to something for 40 minutes anymore. You know, most people listen to music while they're driving to work or when they're on the bus or, you know, doing the housework or whatever they're doing. And usually that doesn't take longer than 20 or 30 minutes. So does it even make sense to make a 1-hour long

28:44record when no one's ever going to get to the end of it? Uh I mean I used to make records where I would like I would love albums that were like, you know, 40 minutes or an hour long and the last 10 minutes was one giant long epic opus of a of a song. and and I made records like that where I would have this huge culminating epic thing at the end of the record and then I realized that no one was going to listen to it. Um, so I'm not even sure that making an album is a good idea anymore. Um, I mean, we still

29:19sell CDs, but that's probably because most of our fans are not 20 years old Uh, so that's the first question you ask it. Do I really want to make an album? And what does that album even mean? I mean, is it a thing? I mean, I like I love concept big massive concept albums like you got in the 70s. You know, Frog Rock concept albums like, you know, Yes. is Tales from Topographic Ocean. It's like a double album with four songs on it. Each one 20 minutes long. Fabulous. I love that that grandiosity of a record. Um, but does it make any sense to do that these days? Uh, in the age of

29:58streaming, in the age of Tik Tok, I mean, does that even make sense anymore? Um, so you got first thing you got to ask yourself is what's my artistic intention in this? What am I actually trying to create? And and I don't make an album just for the sake of making an album. Um, what are you trying to get across? What are you trying to transmit? What is what is the artistic package? and what audience are you trying to get to and what are you trying to say to them. That's for me the questions I ask myself, which is probably sounds a bit philosophical and pretentious or

30:34whatever, but it's the it's it's true. You've got to see yourself, what do I want to do here? Um, sometimes it might just be you want to make like a two-minute pop song. Bam. Done. Do it. Have it out tomorrow. You can do that if you want. Um, maybe you want to make like a, you know, a symphony. Okay, do that. I mean, but don't make an album just because I mean, an album is a thing. I mean, the album the album only existed because the technology was there to transmit it. You know, albums, you know, like the Yes record had four 20-minute songs because when they made

31:11it, the only way to transmit it was on a vinyl record and each vinyl record could only hold 20 minutes on a side. Do you know why the CD is 70 minutes hold 70 minutes of music? You ever know that? No. The original when they originally prototyped the CD at Phillips in in Holland, they made it uh one hour long and then they were talking to the Sonnie because they wanted to do a joint venture making the CD between Phillips and Sonni and the head of Sony's favorite Malor Symphony was 69 minutes long. So he said, "Can we not make it 70 minutes long so I can

31:44hear my favorite Malor Symphony?" And they were like, "I guess so." And that's why the CD is 70 minutes long. Um, it's designed to transport that one piece of music that that that's that long. Um, we're not limited by that transport technology anymore cuz the transport technology now is this thing you're watching right now. So, you can do whatever you want. That's a really long way of of not answering the question, I guess. No, I I think we're all on the journey with you, right? Yeah. No, it actually makes perfect sense. I I think um essentially like going back to the why like really going like why why am I

32:27you know wanting to create Yeah. Why do why do I make CDs anymore? Well, because every time we tour people come to the merchandising booth and say I would really like to buy a CD and and that's why we still make CDs. Um for the longest time I I was thinking maybe we just don't make any more CDs at all but people asked for them so that's why we do it. Otherwise, I would be doing just I don't know what the hell I'd be doing. I'd be doing something else. Yeah. Well, you mentioned that you have a couple of albums on deck. Um, are they

33:00are they ones that are conceptual or is it more like you're thinking of different themes that you're I I hate hate talking about work in progress. I never talk about work in progress. And and the reason for that is that the moment I verbalize it, uh it loses some of its own mistake in my own head if you like. And the moment and it's the same reason why I never let people come to watch us rehearse. I mean, we never let anybody else in the room when we're rehearsing because the moment they step in the room, I automatically go into, hey, look at me. I'm a rockstar mode and I'm so and I

33:39automatically start playing to the audience. And um but when I'm actually writing and recording, I don't want to play to an audience's preconceptions. Uh I want to do this thing that's inside me and and let it out in the most pure way possible, I guess. Um and it took me a long time before I could even uh let people hear demos or rough mixes of my songs. I mean, normally I would just even wouldn't even do that. These days, I do let my close friends hear some rough mixes and get their feedback because I'm I think probably because I'm stable enough in my own head

34:19and I'm I'm I trust my own process enough so that I can take that feedback and not let it veer me off course, I guess. But for the longest time, I I I didn't even like doing that. So, I understand that. Um it it it is interesting because I feel like the act of songwriting is such a subconscious act, right? And and um and you are digging in the ethers and it's it's very reflective. Yeah. And for me and you know I mean I remember once going around to some very famous musician's house who who I will whose name I will not mention and and I was waiting for him to I was

35:01hanging out at his house and he was like late. It was like I had a half an hour to kill in in his living room and I started looking through his book collection cuz that's what you do when you're in someone else's eyes, right? You always look through the book collection and and I was picking books out of his book collection. He opened up and I I noticed like there were whole passages all you know highlighted and I realized that some of the things that were highlighted were were had appeared in lines of his songs and I'm like, "Oh, okay. I know. I see how he writes his

35:27songs." Uh, and um and and I think to a lot of people when they write a song, that's literally what they're doing. They're going like, "Well, what's going to sound good here?" Um, and and that's never been interesting for me. Um, when I write a song, it has to be what's in here, what's in here, and it has to just come out. So, it has to have a truth and an authenticity of of what of my lived experience. I mean, just not a line that sounds good. uh or you know, I love you, you love me, we're so happy. You know, it's that's not interesting. Probably because probably

36:05the reason why I don't sell so many Well, I I I think that um like you were saying, like you really do have it comes down to speaking your truth, and that's what I think lends itself to longevity. Um I agree. Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like you do. If you stand behind what you've created, um, it can stand the test of time. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, and that's always been something that's been very important to me that that I do want to make something that will stand the test of time, something that can outlive my even me, something, you know, and and I'm very proud personally, you know,

36:48when I listen back to some of my older records and they still sound like, "Wow, that's actually a that's a great record." Uh, and that's something I feel very that gives me a great deal of personal satisfaction. um and that I stuck to that authenticity and that truth of who I am and what I am and and and uh and made that and also not just like from an ego point of view uh quite the opposite um because it's like you know it one of the rarest and most wonderful things in the world is when you when someone really understands you when someone really understands your emotions and really

37:31feels what you're feeling and when you have that connection with them and one of the things I love about playing live especially is that I can do that with hundreds and hundreds of people uh and I can look in the audience and see you know someone with a tear running down their face because they understand what I'm feeling and that is a really special and important thing um to to have that emotional connection and the fact that we can do that with so many different people is is a truly wonderful thing. Yeah, absolutely. Um you were saying something earlier um that made me think about the fact that music is so

38:15universal and it really does you know reflect the human experience I think. Yeah. And um when you have the courage uh to share an expression that you've written um and other people can connect to it, it's like you bring them inside you in a way, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think um I don't know. I think that's something as you were sharing about traveling to different countries um that really doesn't matter uh if you're speaking different languages. No, not at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We um I find that um well, even within the US, every state is like a its own country. Yeah. Really, it has

39:06its own culture. Um and I do find that the music is is universal. It's just all about the expression of the human experience. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do love that. um in your use of of um technology uh because you know you you could choose to go I guess I don't for lack of a better word like in the more robotic um direction where you couldn't be understood right if if you chose um but you you put an emphasis on your lyrics um and so your voice is heard and you can really hear the words in your recordings um and I think that

39:47really does make a difference in really connecting to the music is really hearing the voice and hearing the words. Yeah. Well, I would I'd like to think that my voice is worth listening to, but yeah, unlike a lot some other unlike some other bands in this genre that I can think of. No, I I Yeah, I mean I like to sing. Uh um hopefully I've got a people like my voice, I think. So, uh, yeah. I mean, when though mixing the band when you're the singer is like one of the hardest things in the world cuz it's really hard to decide how loud to make the vocals.

40:25It's, and you must know this, it's like the hardest thing in the world cuz, you know, you want the music to be really powerful, but yet you want people to hear you. And I spend so much time and and also like everybody I'm sure everybody um watching this now whether a musician or not has that moment where the first time you hear your your recorded voice played back to you you're going holy [ __ ] is that me? Oh my god that's horrible. Um yeah imagine that for every day for the rest of your life. Um so it took me a long time to be able to hear my own voice without cringing.

41:01Um, and it's still I that that's still probably the the hardest part of making a record for me is trying to mix my own Um, it's it's a really extremely uh issue for me, but uh I' I've kind of learned how to do it, I think, now. But is it collaborative um within this Cassandra complex or are you the one making? Yeah. No, I I like to collaborate. I mean, I'm um uh we have a saying in the Cassandra complex. The great thing about the Cassandra complex, you can take any member of the Cassandra Complex and put them in any studio anywhere in the world

41:44and give them any instrument and they still won't be able to play it correctly. Uh um we all do everything really except for that I'm I'm the only vocalist. Um, it's a very collaborative experience and and even though I there are some songs that I've written alone, very few, but um, and I could make the records on my own if I really wanted to, but I don't really want to. I like to collaborate. I like to have that feedback coming from someone else where they go, "Wait a minute, hang on, I could do this." And then and you're like, "Wow." And then, you know, like I may have 90% of a song

42:27written and then Paul or Andy or one of the other musicians of the band will come up with this amazing topline melody or this weird little sequence in the background that suddenly adds that extra level of of brilliance to it. And those moments are what I live for. I I love that experience. So, I really love to collaborate. I love to work with other people who are uh who are you know inspirational and and have can add something to it and make it better. It's a wonderful thing. Uh and it stops you getting too egotistic as well. Um it's always good to have someone to go like

43:05and it's also good when when I can do something that you know you know those moments when you're like awake at 3:00 in the morning and you've done something utterly amazing and then the next day you wake up and your bandmate goes Jesus that sucks. Um, that's also really important, too. yes. Yes. Your bandmates definitely keep you in check. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I am a band girl myself. I absolutely love being in a band. Yeah. Right. Yeah. so you mentioned having um kind of different members throughout throughout the, you know, life of of the Cassandra complex. Um do you um end up

43:51collaborating with different people as they come in and out or is it really dependent on like Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, we've had a we've had the the core of the band has remained the same from the beginning. Um, which is amazing after all this time. I mean, I still find it incredible that that Paul and I are still making music together after like this huge amount of time. Um, and all the stuff that's happened, life things that have happened in between. Um, because there are there are other things that happen outside of the band. Obviously, you know, you got to people have jobs and families and stuff. Life

44:27happens. Um, but we've kept it pretty much the core of Paul and myself and Andy Booth who plays guitar for us. He doesn't tour with us at the moment, but um, and and the other thing is that, you know, it's we're very much a cottage industry, which I know it's what you guys do as well. Um, for us, right from the beginning, it was really important to be truly independent. We've never had a a manager, uh, anything like that. We we manage ourselves. We record our own records. We have our own studio. We do our own productions, marketing, everything we do ourselves. Um, and so

45:00from a very early, right from the beginning, we decided that we would learn other things rather than just being musicians. And that's become that's actually been really useful and really important. And I truly recommend anybody who wants to be a musician is don't just be a musician, be something else as well. Uh, so I was very interested in the technology and the recording. So I became the producer. I produced lots of other bands. I ended up helping to design technology and that was that's my other career if you like. Um Andy for example, he did all our business work and he ended up doing a

45:37law degree because he got so tired of us being ripped off in contracts. Um so he did a law degree and became a lawyer and now he's the lawyer for New Order and Johnny Mueller and the Pixies and you know that's that's what he does. He's a he's a very well-known music business lawyer. Uh and Axel who played with us for a long time on keyboards. He did all our he did all the live sound stuff and now he does the life he then had a career as a live sound mixer for bands like I don't know and one project pitchfork beorn baton um he did the live

46:10sound for all those guys. So we've been we've been involved in this scene in the background like all the way across the scene. there's there's very few um parts of it that we haven't touched in some way and I think that's been really important for us. Um and and so but and as people have come and other people have come in and out of the band over the years and written with us and worked with us but uh so it becomes it's become more of a sort of a a floating collective of people. Um, but again like Chris Hask who played guitar on the last

46:46album, Death and Sex, Chris we knew when we first started when we very first started. He was a guitar, he was an American guitar player who was studying in Leeds University. So he came to our very first shows and hung around with this. But he was playing with another band at the time. So he never played with us and then and so but we were really close. So when he had time he he did some work with us but he also ended up joining Henry Rollins band and he was the guitar player for Henry Rollins for many years and then then he did some work with some obscure English singer

47:19called David Bowie and played guitar for him and uh and now he plays for us. So it's like hey great but we've known Chris for 40 years as well. So it's a wonderful thing. Uh, and and you but I don't I don't like the idea. I I never use session musicians or someone like that. I mean, I've got computers that can do that. Um, but I like having people in there that that get the music that understand it and want to be part of it. And so, it's always been that Yeah. It makes a huge difference. Um, you find, I guess, kindred spirits. That's a absolutely kindred spirits.

47:57Yeah. Absolutely. I I think that um it's like they really they truly connect with the music. Um and so when you play together, it is magic. It really is. It's it's an alchemy. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Have you ever um like thought about um like Well, okay. So I feel like being a technologist, you are are a forward thinker. I think uh technologists it's like science fiction I think in a way where you imagine I'm a huge science fiction fan. Same. Yeah. Um have you ever like envisioned um like different instruments um like playing around with it? I I know you can do a lot on synths so it's like you

48:46create so much sound and soundscapes with synths but um beyond that I don't know. I'll use anything. I mean we've used all sorts of stuff. um uh everything. I mean, I I had one of the very early guitar synthesizers, for example. I bought an EMS Cynthy Highfly in a junk store for 55 UK pounds and uh it was the very first guitar synthesizer ever made. They made like a just like a few hundred of them. David Gilmore from Pink Floyd had one. So, all those amazing Pink Floyd soundscapes on guitar were done with one of those synthesizers. big difference being of course that Dave Gilmore can actually

49:27play unlike me. But um but that was a that was a wonderful thing and I used that a lot on our cyberpunk record and uh to do these like things that you couldn't normally do on a guitar. Um and that was really fun. Um eventually I sold it for $5,000, but uh because I'm a terrible guitar player, I sold it to someone who who could actually play the guitar. Um, but uh yeah, I mean I'd love playing around with anything like that. I mean I I mean and I I love doing like really, you know, interesting ambient soundscapes and stuff like that. We we turn out a

50:06lot of that. Most of it never actually sees a light of day, but actually I want to do a an ambient album or two or three um sometime soon. Paul and I keep talking about that. Um someday it will happen. I mean, I did work I worked with um for a while with a band called the Future Sound of London. I don't know if you've heard of them. Uh amazing sort of somewhere between ambient and techno band in England. Uh and I did I did a surround sound record with them that was amazing. I mixed mixed it in surround sound 5.1 surround sound with Robert Frip on guitar and

50:44that was that was a fabulous thing to do. It was really interesting electronic soundscapes and it was all surround and being able to take Robert if you know what Robert Frip's guitar sounds like these like really long and he's the original ambient guitar player he and Brian you know did uh there's a great record called uh Northstar and one called No [ __ ] Footing which was really one of the very first ambient records Robert Frip and Brian you know so I was taking a lot of Frip's guitar and just being able to pan it round all the way right round and and melded in with all

51:17this all this stuff and that was a that was a beautiful experience. I love doing that one. Um that was really good. That sounds amazing. I I actually could literally see it um I don't know uh future future thinking but in some performed in some kind of a dome with visuals. Yeah. Right. I mean, one of my favorite shows we ever did was um we played once on Christmas Day, I think, at the Edmonton Space Center in Canada, and we played in the uh in the big dome with all the visuals projected on the ceiling. And there were we had 28 speakers in a circle around the outside

51:54of the audience and we played in the middle and it was it was marvelous. Um I remember Andy saying at the beginning like he said, "If you have any good drugs, take them now." And there was and there was a voice from the audience said, "Don't worry, man. We're way ahead of you." Um, so I spent most of that show lying on my back just looking at the stuff I bought going like, "What?" Um, so yeah, that was that was a great show. That sounds next level. Hopefully hopefully that can happen again because I would like to go to one of these shows. Yeah, that's a that's

52:28actually a really good idea. H well we I was um la last year in LA um I actually was negotiating with the LA public library to do a live soundtrack to Noseratu in the library and uh that would have been great um but didn't get a chance maybe next year we'll see that would be amazing yeah I'd love to do that yeah oh gosh I I love um seeing uh movies with live soundtracks One of the best the one of the best shows I ever saw in my life was Philip Glass and the Cronis Ensemble were doing a live soundtrack to Bella Losce's and that was that was amazing. And they

53:13had the orchestra behind the screen, the huge screen, the orchestra behind the screen and then they had underfloor lighting that would come up and so at moments during the the movie you could just see in the background these shadowy figures playing the soundtrack. Magnificent. Magnificent show. Oh, that sounds amazing. Well, planting seeds for for uh the the library for next year. Let's see. Yes, I I will buy a ticket to this. Yeah. So, um I was wondering like um when you were starting out with with playing live, um did you do all the booking yourself? Um, you mentioned being self-managed. Well, at our very first shows that we did in and around

54:02Leadeds, we did all that ourselves because we were doing these big art events. Um, but then after we did our second single, um, Moscow, Idaho, uh, I happened to be in the studio one day. I was actually just going to the bathroom and the phone rang. Um, which was unusual because we didn't even we normally we just bunkered down in there and had no communication with the outside world. And I happened to just hear the phone, which I never heard normally because I would have a bunch of going all the time, you know. I'd never hear the phone ring, but I just happened to be going to the bathroom. And I

54:39picked up the phone and was like, "Hey, hello. This is Rude from Holland. We would like you to play in Holland." And I was like, "What?" Uh, okay. Cuz we had put out a record. We put out two 12-in singles on our own um the distribution company had ordered more records where they were selling them, but we had absolutely no idea who was buying these records. Um, now the distribution company were continually surprised that they um so I'm like, "You want us to play in Holland?" He's like, "Oh, yes, we would like to." And I said, "How? Why?" And I'm like, "Why?" Cuz no one in the UK cared about us. We

55:21couldn't get a show to save our lives. And he said, "Oh, do you know your record is very big here in the clubs?" I'm like, "No, I didn't know that." He Oh, yes. So, we would like to do you have another agent? We're like, "No." Uh, and he was like, "Can I be your agent?" And I'm like, "Sure, man." And that's how it started. And it was just like completely by chance. He had I didn't even know he had got my phone number through the distribution company and tracked us down and uh managed to get in touch with us and said, "Oh yeah, we want to come and come to Holland and

55:55play." And uh and I remember the first show he booked us in Germany in Hamburg in Germany. And um we had no idea what the hell was going on. And um we we were playing in this little tiny club in in Hamburg. It held like 350 people. and um if that and that was like sardines. Um and we were soundchecking and then after the sound check we we' traveled overnight from Holland and we were uh said let's go back to the hotel and clean up. So we went back to the hotel freshened up a little bit and then we were driving back to the venue and there

56:28was a huge demonstration in the street. We were like, "Oh my god, what's going on here?" It's like a riot or something. It's like the whole street was full of people. The cars were there was a traffic jam and everything. We're like and and uh Keith who was drawing for us, I said like maybe they're here to see us. We were all like we're all rolling around in the car like at this thought and then we we we pulled up and we were like wait a minute and they were there to see us. There were a thousand people in the street trying to get into a 350

56:57seater venue um a capacity venue and we were like holy [ __ ] this is unbelievable. Like wow we had no idea. And um and we were like, "Look at us. We're rock stars now." So we got out of the car and we walked over to the venue and uh we're trying to get in and people were like, "Get back in the line." Cuz nobody knew what we looked like. So we were we were stuck outside our own show for like nearly an hour because no one would let us in the line. Um we couldn't get in because I'm like, "I'm the singer." Like, "Yeah, sure you

57:29are, mate." You know, get to the back of the line. Uh, and so that was like, oh, okay, the being a rockstar is I can't even get in my own show. And eventually we we only got in because the promoter was inside the venue like, where the hell is the band? And he he the Porter came out like having a total panic attack cuz he'd lost us and we were in the middle of the street with a thousand other people. Um, so that's amazing. Yeah. Um, yeah. So yeah, so we we do have an agent. Um and we we work with an agent all the time and

58:06that's that's pretty much the only third party person we work with. Um we also work with we have a we work with a record company in San Francisco, COP International. Um a German guy called Christian Petka runs that label. Very very good label. And again, we could do that ourselves, but I just don't have the time and the energy to to worry about getting CDs pressed. Um, so I just let let Christian do that and it's fine. Um, and we have an agent who's um our agent currently is a German lady called Sabina uh vaults who's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And she does frontline assembly and liebach and the

58:47Cassandra Complex and a bunch of other bands. And she's she's great because she knows all the venues. She knows what she's doing. She's really energetic and doesn't take [ __ ] from anyone. and uh she works hard for her for her money and uh and that's wonderful. So Sabina does all her her work in most of Europe and then we have an agent in Latin America who handles all the Latin American stuff as well and that does make a lot of sense. I mean I think you book your own shows, right? Um yeah and yo I'll respect lady because that is a tough job. That is the toughest job in rock

59:25and roll in my opinion by far. So, uh, yeah, I definitely prefer having an agent for that position that we can get an agent and that's not easy at all anymore. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a testament to your music and the fact that people connect to it because like you were saying, uh, you know, your your agent first reached out to you because you were doing so well. Um, and you know, it definitely shows like there's all these people that want to hear and experience your music live, right? Yeah. And but on the other hand, and like Yeah. And so, you know, half of me goes,

1:00:08"Yeah, look at me. I'm brilliant. An agent called me out of nowhere. I didn't have to go find one. I'm so cool." But on the other side, half of me is like, "What happened if I didn't want to go for a piss when that phone rang?" You know? Yeah. He he was like, "I've been trying to call you for months. I don't and and uh that might never have happened and then I've been working in a McDonald's." Um so, you know, a lot is to do with just being in the right place at the right time. And you've got to make sure you're in the right place at

1:00:39the right time. Uh is making sure you're you're you're in there and doing that. But you can't force it. You know, it's you can't make [ __ ] happen. You know, I'd like to think that I got where I am through sheer hard work and talent. And yes, there was a definitely a lot of hard work and maybe a little bit of talent, but most of it was just sheer [ __ ] luck. Uh, and I keep reminding myself all the time, you know, and so yeah, I think, you know, something you said earlier as well that really resonated was talking about how each one of you in the Cassandra complex also um

1:01:20has um different skill sets that has been able to like help you guys along the way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important to develop those skill sets and at least even though I mean even though I'm not our agent, I have agents that work for us. I know how the process works. So, and and that's important. I need to be able to know, you know, I I I I do all their tour books. I mean, our our band, we have a a full project management system that runs our band runs on a on on a project management system. Everything's written is stored online. We have all

1:01:56the dates mapped out. We have all the schedules mapped out. We have the handbooks for our equipment that's held online. Everything we um and that's really important. I mean, don't think if you want to do this, do it properly. You know, this is a business. This is my this is my workplace. This is my library. This is my business. It's a business. And you have to you have to be able you have to be able to do two things. You have to be able to say on this hand I'm this authentic passionate musician who does this for the love of it. And on the other hand, you have to

1:02:31say I'm also a businessman running a business and I need to eat. And so I need to make this stuff work. I need to make it work right. And and so one of the things we do is we make sure that everybody in the band understands both those things and has their job to do on both aspects. Um because otherwise forget it. Uh unless you want to throw out 10% here, 15% here, 20% here, whatever, you know, and everybody you work with takes their percentage before you get paid. You're the last person who will ever get who will ever get paid. Everybody else's percentage comes first.

1:03:12So, you know, and when you make a record, you don't normally get paid for like 18 months. It takes that long. You know, you got to spend the money, the time, the energy, and you got to, you know, if you're if you're pressing your own CDs, you got to pay for the CD first. You got to pay for the record the recording and the equipment first. Then you got to go out there and you got to sell it. You got to pay somebody to sell it for you. You got to give the percentage to the stores or to the merchandising person. They get their money first. And eventually eventually

1:03:40you'll get the money back. It may take as long as 18 months. So, how are you going to eat for 18 months? These are the questions you got to ask yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um it's it's something I' I've thought about. It's um some of the music that that is coming out of us is stuff we wrote five years ago. Right. So, Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Like it's a when you put out um music, it's a representation of a chapter in your life but from the past. Um Right. Absolutely. The moment it comes out, it's already obsolete effectively. I mean, you're still the same person, but

1:04:20yeah, it's what you wear, not what you are. And Yeah. And I've got songs sitting in my hard drive for the next record. And some of those I wrote 5 years ago. Yeah. Or started writing 5 years ago and still haven't quite finished yet. Which reminds me, I really should. But yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, it is another form of time travel, I think. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Um and then there's the moment when you are sharing the music live. Um and it becomes a a whole different thing entirely. Um I I nothing nothing in the world beats that moment though. No, not at all. I when you were sharing about

1:05:02how um you don't like sharing your process um I I I think it's interesting when you are um sharing out a song live how it takes on a whole different meaning to other ears right it's only finished when they hear it is the way I look at it you know um that sort of completes the loop the emotional absolutely Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like um in those moments then sometimes it's like you make a discovery where you're like, "Wow, I didn't know that's what that meant." Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's it's it's such a powerful thing. And um I mean like you were saying as well um

1:05:49about how you were like don't like doing don't be in a band, don't do the album. Um, but if you choose to like if you well if if you're called to do it, I suppose um for lack of a better term if that's just Yeah. I mean I I totally I I totally get that if you're called to do it. Yes, I get that. Um and and for me it very much feels that way. The moment my foot hits the stage, I'm just transfigured into something beyond my normal self. And I think you you understand that. Um and and yeah, I do feel that it's

1:06:28this is what I do. This is not this is my natural state of being as it were and this is what I'm was born to do. And it feel very much feel and I think anyone who's seen us live will gets that the moment I step on that stage that's that's me. That's me in my natural element. Um on the other hand, I also have to keep reminding myself I may just be completely deranged. Um, that's maybe just me being some narcissistic [ __ ] and thinking, "Hey, look at me. I'm a rockstar." Uh, and um, and so you you've got to continually you you know, I

1:07:04remember like I was at a I was doing a music um artist conference once. Uh, I was moderating a panel um at this and there were loads and loads of musicians there and there were some people from record companies and agencies and stuff that were talking and and um someone said um in the audience like when you're starting out as a musician, what's the most important thing that is you should know? And uh someone in the panel said well it's really important to believe in yourself. You got to you got to believe in yourself. You got to have strong self-belief blah blah blah. And everyone

1:07:38else Yeah. Yeah. and everyone nodded along. And then it got to me and I said, "That's the biggest pile of [ __ ] I've ever heard in my life." Uh, and um they were like, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, look, I've worked with a lot of very well-known artists and they all have one thing in common, and that is a crippling sense of self-doubt. Um, you talk to any great artist, and they all think they're [ __ ] useless." Um, like, and that's what drives us forward. What drives me forward is not like, "Look at me, I'm a great rockstar." What drives me forward is thinking, [ __ ]

1:08:07that stuff I did was just not good enough. I need to do better than that. Uh, I've got to be I've got to, you know, I I can do this is like, yeah, that that song was good. Yeah. Okay. But still didn't quite get what I needed to do. Um, and, you know, and that sense of of of needing to be better, of needing to be stronger and and to do better is what drives me along, you know. Um, not like look at me, I'm fabulous. Um, yeah, you do need to have a bit of that because sometimes when you're at 2:00 in the morning when you're laying in your

1:08:44bed going, why am I bothering? Um, it's important to have think, well, I can do this. But more importantly, I think it is to say like, well, I can do this better. I can be be better. I can do better. I can create something more. Uh and that I think is what drives a lot of artists along. Absolutely. Um it's interesting. Um uh this is in line with uh what a beautiful question from Pete Russo. Thank you for your question. Um is asking um when you see songs like that, do you look at them like a snapshot of where you were when you wrote them or do you feel like you

1:09:22might want to update them to where you are now? Oh, what a fabulous question. That's a fantastic question. Um, yes is the answer to that. Um, both. Um, uh, actually I was just listening last night. I went to see the Gang of Four, one of my all-time favorite bands. They played here in LA and I was just listening to an album called Return the Gift. uh was when the gang of four they broke up after their first records and they got back together again and they re-recorded uh their early hits and and completely re-recorded and did an album called Return the Gift uh which was all

1:09:58those early hits redone and it's a brilliant record um because they had better they had more money, better technology and many years of experience in between. And so like on the last tour we did because it was our 40th anniversary, we did a lot of the very early record uh songs um we wanted to make it very much a celebration of of who we were in our history. But uh so we went through all the old songs and redid them from scratch. Uh and in fact we did an album uh the last album we put out was called Death and Sex which was actually a re-recorded version of a

1:10:34previous album which is called Sex and See what we did there? Um, we re-recorded all those songs because when we did the original, I was because I was Cop International wanted to put the original record out and I was remastering it and all the way through I'm going, "Oh my god, that sucks. Oh god, that's Oh, my voice sounds terrible there and that drum sound isn't quite right or whatever." So, in the end, Roland remastered, I said, "Fuck it. We'll just re-record it from scratch." So, we re-recorded the whole album or nearly the whole album and put it out again as a new recording. Uh, and in my

1:11:08opinion, much better recording. Uh, and so I'm we're continually re-examining our own history and continually trying to make it better. And so, uh, when we did the last tour, we did all the old songs completely newly arranged. Um, a lot of the times, like I said, we got the original synthesizers and, the original drum machines back. Um, but a lot of the cases we we redid them completely with the knowledge and the technology we have now. Um, cuz now I have everything at my fingertips. Um, before it was just two kids in a basement with stuff you got in a junk store. Um, which has its own charm and

1:11:50its own importance. Um, but yeah, I'm but now I have more information and more resources, but hopefully still have the same emotions inside. I can still tap into those and and sometimes when I when I'm playing those songs live, like really old songs, I'll be standing on the stage and I'll remember the moment, you know, I still remember the moment I wrote Moscow, Idaho in 1986. I can still remember that that I was sitting on a bench outside a disco. There was a famous uh nightclub in Leeds called Leonographique which was really the first ever goth club and I used to Paul and I used to go there every Wednesday

1:12:32night. Um the very very very first ever postpoint goth club. And one night I was waiting for he I was waiting for him to turn up and he was late. So we sat on a bench outside and I heard the music coming. And I thought, I'm going to write a song that they're going to play in this club. And I sat down here at Moscow, Idaho, and I I still remember pulling out a notebook and writing the the lyrics. And Paul had written the sequencer line earlier that day. It was still in my head. And I wrote the song. And uh and every time I sing it, I still

1:13:05remember that moment like it was yesterday. So Oh, I think that's beautiful. I think that's beautiful. It's it's again it's the it's the time travel snapshot like Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I don't know. I I I love um that you can pull inspiration from so many different places and um I don't know. Do do you I I I know for myself it's always different. Every song is so different like how it comes about you know. Sure. And that's a good thing I think. Yeah. Um, well, I was curious. Um, do you ever Well, in this particular instance, it sounds like the words came first, right? Oh, the the old question,

1:13:52which comes first, the words or the music? And the answer is yes. Yes. Sure. Or I don't know. Sometimes both. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know. When people ask me about my process, I always find it very difficult to answer because I still don't quite know where it comes from. It just sort of happens magically. I'll you know it it's in there and then one day it's in there and the next day it's out there. Uh and I really don't know what the process is. There's no I don't have a fixed process. I mean I've got a again I got papers and hard drives and uh full

1:14:26of notes and bits of lyrics and all sorts of stuff. So I'll collect up like I'll be laying in my bed at 2 o'clock in the morning go like oh and a little snippet will come in my head and I will wake up and like write in my phone or whatever immediately and keep it and then maybe 5 years later I'll see it and go oh oh yeah and it'll trigger off something else or sometimes we'll just be playing around have a drum rhythm or a Andy will come have us some little guitar part or something and I'll start singing oh yeah and then we we and maybe

1:15:00we'll we'll write a a verse or a chorus or whatever and then I'll go oh yeah I can and or you know or you know uh something you know the band band will come up we all come up with a whole a whole piece of music with no lyric and and then I'll go away and just listen to it and just go and then words will it'll trigger off some associations or feelings and the words will start to come and they'll they'll make sense in the context of the music. I don't know. It really could be any of these and all of those things. Um

1:15:39yeah, it's very much an organic process. Uh I think in that sense I think that's part of the fun. Um totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a discovery I think every time. Yeah. But it's a very magical process in that like I say one day it's not there and the next day it's a song and something happens in between but I'm still not sure what that thing is. I mean there yeah there's processes like playing the music or whatever but there's just some indefinable something that ineffable thing that happens that makes it into something a piece of art you know. Yeah absolutely. I I it's always uh fun

1:16:25for us when we have like um external inspiration like when we collaborate with other artists in different mediums um and and then they give you the impetus where they're like here's the concept go right you know um but yeah like when it's just when it comes organically within yourself or within the band it is yeah something that's a little bit difficult to pinpoint but yeah yeah we're Um, we're we we also do our our share of jamming. Um, which I find a lot of joy in. So, Well, we never jam because we're [ __ ] I'm I'm I think you're a little better than that. I I um I had a difficulty myself when I

1:17:16first started jamming because I came from a classical background. Um, and so I didn't know how to jam. Right. Yeah. I mean, I've I've worked a lot of classical musicians in the past and they're always like completely like they're they're like a a deer caught in headlights when they see your process in the studio. Like what? Totally. Yeah. It it takes some getting used to. You're like, "Oh." So, you just just play it and you just feel it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um I I I just want to say thank you again for for taking the time to to chat with me and to share your

1:17:54perspective and your inspiration. Um really truly uh inspiring. Um you have such a depth um to all the things that you've created. Well, thank you. I appreciate that very much. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Yeah. And um I wanted to say thank you as well um to everyone that has been chiming in um and asking questions and and sharing your perspective as well. Um it's it's such a joy to to be a part of the live music community. Um and Written Rules of the Road is all about that. And um you know it's it's something where like you were talking about um earlier

1:18:31like how technology um has made it possible for other people to be able to to create. Um, and um, I think it's one of those things where it's like it's it helps I think when you hear other people um, share their history and their perspective to know like, hey, it's possible. Like, you know, I I might not know what I'm doing, but somehow you will figure it out along the way, right? So, yeah. So, um, yeah, thank you so much again, Rodney, for for your time. Um, and um, really looking forward to hearing more Cassandra Complex. Um, hopefully I will get to see you live uh, here in the

1:19:17States. Um, but maybe I'm not so sure about that. We will see if we play the states again, but yeah. Um, yeah, hopefully. I think we're planning on going back on tour again uh, in the fall of next year, I think, is currently the plan. I've just been asked to do a festival earlier next year, but I'm not sure we're g we said we were going to take a lot of time off just to so we can catch up with the recording and do real life stuff. But uh yeah, hopefully back on tour in about a year and a bit maybe and hopefully some records before then.

1:19:53So, it is kind of funny how you make these plans and then um life has a funny way of of tangenting, right? where you're like taking some time just to make the album and then you end up, you know, in a different spot. Well, that's also true. I mean, yeah. I mean, one of the things I don't think a lot of people realize is like when you're doing these big festivals or whatever, they book you're booking the shows over a year in advance. You're usually a year to 18 months in advance. So, we're now starting to book shows for fall of next year. That's how far ahead we have to

1:20:30think. So yeah, it's like my head is full of like plans for the next two years or more already. So anyway, well, I appreciate you taking the time. No, thank you very much indeed. And thanks for watching everybody. Yeah, thank you so much everyone. sending much love and we will see