Daniel Graves, in full

0:00Let go. There is no justice. [music] There is JUST GREAT to live with conscience. Yes. [music] To live on your knees.

0:29of the day. Is there no breaking down [music] the ground is no [music] Oh. [music] God. [music] Go. [screaming] Where goat? Is there [music] no we [music] [music] endless

2:20God said it now. Robots and Hi friends. Uh you are watching unwritten rules of the road. I am Tash. We are joined today by uh the incredible Daniel Graves. um the incredible maker behind Aesthetic Perfection. Um Daniel, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate it.

3:23My absolute pleasure to be here. Thank you for uh moving this up and doing it a little bit earlier than you usually do to uh account for the time difference. So uh yeah, like I said, uh always honored to be invited to uh talk to people. Never feel like I'm important enough to uh be interviewed, but I'm humbled. Thank you so much. It's funny you say that because um you you are you're an incredibly successful artist with a really huge body of work. Um and and yet one of the things I really appreciate you about you is that you take the time um to share your

3:58wisdom, to share your experience, to inspire other artists um being an independent artist yourself um carrying the torch and and showing the rest of us like, "Hey guys, this is possible."

4:11Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, when I was growing up, I was basically, you know, uh, just kind of I actually, I mean, I think we're all sort of stumbling our way through life, right? But I, you know, I never never really had a a mentor in life, let alone in music. And so after having a couple of quite negative experiences with uh artists that I had looked up to uh growing up, I kind of decided that if I ever had the opportunity to be in their position, like to uh be able to give advice or help or even just encouragement to uh other upandcoming

4:51musicians that I would absolutely take it. So, some of my biggest like musical inspirations were actually my biggest inspirations of like who not to be as a

5:02That's that's a a fun not so fun irony.

5:08You know, you take the good with the bad, right? Like and I I I think um

5:12I think [snorts] now

5:14when when you're a 16year-old 15 15 16 year old kid like you don't even know what it's like to be in the shoes of these people that you're looking up to. So you know I I think um I'm probably a little bit more uh forgiving of you know people being short or impatient with me or whatever because obviously we all have bad days. But it really just goes to show you how much like these little moments uh mean to, you know, your audience when they get the chance to meet you and talk to you or, you know, other musicians. Um, and so even if you're having a bad day and, uh, you

5:52know, this isn't who you are like in, you know, the majority of of the time, right? these these moments where you're like less than gracious really can make an impact on people because I remember these experiences vividly and they're like, you know, 20 something years ago. Uh so I just, you know, I always try to imagine what it was like to be that 16-year-old uh whenever I'm engaging with uh you know, fans, other musicians, whatever. I imagine your 16-year-old self would probably really love that you have, you know, really dedicated yourself to that.

6:35I think my 16-year-old self would be like, "What? You're not a multi-millionaire yet? [laughter] Like, what are you doing? You totally screwed it up, man."

6:44And yet, I mean, look at the tour you just did. Um, I mean, my gosh, that's incredible. Like, talk about like a a pinnacle moment, right?

6:55Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, this this tour that we just did with uh Till Lindamman, the singer of Kamstein, um you know, we've toured with him before. Uh that that this was actually the fourth tour that um we've done with him. So, you know, um I think I thought I knew what to expect, but as Till's project has grown, you know, they're now playing in bigger locations. Um, and you know, the the the the fandom gets more and more rabid for him, right? I think the first couple of times maybe people were unsure of what to expect. You know, they you would even have people asking

7:36like, "Oh, is still going to play songs?" And, you know, now he's sort of like firmly established himself as a solo artist, right? And so, I think as the intensity of the fandom for him ramps up and the venues get bigger, like, you know, that starts to spill over onto, you know, everybody who's kind of like in that orbit. And you know, another thing that I I didn't really sort of anticipate going into this tour was that, you know, now a lot of the the diehard Lindamman fans have been sort of introduced to aesthetic perfection so many times that now to them we're not just kind of

8:12strangers. And so this tour was really honestly the the most incredible tour that I've ever done in my 26 years of aesthetic perfection. It was just absolutely mind-blowing. I mean, um, the the, uh, feedback from the audience, the, you know, the experience of, you know, every night I would go out into the crowd after show and like hand out flyers to promote my new single, whatever, put a little QR code on it like, "Hey, listen to my new single. This is my new single." And, you know, uh, a lot of these a lot of times on these last tours, you know, people would just like look at you like, "Who the

8:46hell are you?" and walk away or they look at the flyer and they throw it away. you know, we were getting sometimes crowds of people around us uh where sometimes you were kind of becoming concerned for your safety and that was for me definitely like a very very very new experience and you know just kind of like the the enthusiasm for aesthetic perfection on that tour was was palpable and I honestly never in a million years would have would have expected that especially with it being the fourth tour that we' ever done with till. Um, but you know, I'm I'm eternally grateful for it. You most bands don't get asked back

9:26four times, you know, right? So, I think that's just like a testament to um

9:32I think the the professionalism of myself and my crew, like we really pride ourselves on being easy to work with, easy going, you know, like knowing your place, very important. Um and uh you know uh just basically as as uh perfect of a of an opening band as one could be, right? So it's like trying to tick off every every check box, right? Like what can I do to be a great support band? So I I don't know. It was worked out great. We're very very grateful. Well, if you don't mind um sharing like what what are the tick boxes for for [laughter] being that opening fans,

10:20you know? Um I think that for a lot of artists it is difficult to know your place, right? Because let's say I think a lot of artists do not have a healthy relationship with their egos, right? like we we don't really get into this business because we have a super healthy relationship with our egos. And that's okay. But I think that you need to be self-aware enough to know like when uh you should be allowing your ego to sort of take center stage and when you need to sort of reel it back in. And you know, I'm 42 years old. Uh 25-year-old Daniel did not have a a

11:07handle on his ego. feel like 42-year-old Daniel has a much better uh handle on it. Um, but that means, you know, that there's a lot of things that come with that. So, I think a lot of opening bands, they fight for as much time on stage as possible. But as an opening band, you need to understand that you are not there or the people are not there for you. They did not buy that ticket to see you. Like, you know, of course, maybe there were aesthetic perfection fans in the audience who bought tickets to see us. Fine. But, you know, in an arena of 10,000 people, how

11:40many of them were there for me? Because I know I can't fill an arena of 10,000 people. So, um, I actually, uh, try to play not as little as possible, but I think about how can I structure my show in a way where I'm making the maximum impact in the shortest amount of time possible. So, it's essentially like get in, kick ass, and f off. And and I think that a lot of opening bands don't understand this. Like I've toured with bands that are like I want to play 70 Minutes and it's like you're the first band of three in the night. You like the you're you're going to wear

12:17the audience out before the headliner ever gets up there. So, um, you know, I I do feel when I'm a support band that it's it's my duty to, um, you know, put my best foot forward and show the audience who Aesthetic Perfection is, but also kind of realize that the that the, uh, the limelight is not there for you. So, you know, hype up the crowd for the for the headliner, you know, make make the crowd feel like you are there um to make this night in general great for everybody. Um and then, you know, beyond that, it's like stay out of people's way. you know,

12:55when when the crew of the headliner is coming towards you and the hallway is uh you know, down a down a narrow hallway, uh you should get out, you know, make yourself flat, you know, get get as flat as as you possibly can and get out of the people's way because, you know, their their jobs are at least in terms of the uh the functionality of the production that is happening, their job is more important,

13:26Um, and I've seen people, you know, in opening bands, they'll try to play chicken with the people in the in the other crew and bands and it's it's a pure ego thing. And and I've seen them like shoulder check people and just like, you know, this you're trying to tell the the headlining band that their crew is taking up too much space. And it's like they're making the space for stay out of their way.

13:56And uh be on time. Always be on time.

14:01Like especially, you know, working with uh working with Germans, you know, uh Germans are they they you know, they have a reputation for being the most punctual people because they are the mo most punctual people. And uh I'll never forget uh the uh first tour that I did with their tour manager. Very um straight laced German guy, always very polite, but very very um you know, strict with timings. And we were always there, you know, two or three minutes early, ready to put our stuff on stage. And and when the when the tour was over, um you know, he just walked up to me and he was like, "Daniel, thank

14:40you so so much for being on time. [laughter] And and I was like I just for me being so kind of imshed in German culture and understanding like they have a the Germans have a a saying that is uh loosely translated means uh not being scolded [snorts] is praise enough. So don't ever expect praise from Germans. just if they're not scolding you, then you should feel like you're you're you're in a good place. Now, the fact that you're getting praise and somebody says, "Thank you. Wonderful. You've been on time." You're just like, "My goodness, this is, you know, this this is the best compliment I

15:26could have ever hoped for." So, you know, it's it's things like that. And I think um they're not difficult things. Um but uh I think it's stuff that a lot of people just kind of I don't know, they they they have blinders on. And I think it's really really important to just kind of be self-aware, read the room, know your place, that type of

15:49Well, I I was curious actually um because it's like you're shifting gears now as you're getting ready for the Suckers Suckers uh for Punishment tour. Um which I'm really excited about. You're I love that you're launching here in LA and I'm so excited to see y'all. Um, but I was curious like now that you're actually going to be headlining, um, do you feel like you're you're having a different approach in terms of mindset and how you're getting ready for this tour?

16:16I mean, ab I mean, absolutely. Like, you know, um, as we were talking about before we went live, like playing live is not something that comes supernatural to me. Um, you know, there are a lot of artists who um say that the stage is the only place that they feel free in the world, right? Um, but I am a person who feels like the stage is is just a cage. It is just like it is a a a thousand ton weight on my chest. And um you know it is it is uh for me really like trying to walk and chew gum at the same time but like times

17:02a million because when I'm on stage I'm not thinking I'm not I'm not like just letting loose saying okay uh let's just like kind of go go with the flow. like I I I do get in the zone, but I find myself uh it's it's this constant dialogue where I'm like, "Okay, um this is a part where you have, I don't know, 15 seconds to jump around and move, but you have to stop 5 seconds before you have to sing because you need to regain your breath." And this note or this scream requires like, you know, a lot of um uh breath support and blah blah blah.

17:39So, it's like I'm constantly doing this mental math like trying to figure out how I can perform and how I can sing and trying to think about when to be entertaining. I don't know. It's just for me it's it's this big mental math equation um that when I get off the stage after, you know, 70 minutes, I just feel completely drained of all of my mental and physical energy. Um but I think the way that I'm able to sort of conquer my fear and come to grips with um this I would say monumental mental load is by practicing incessantly and also thinking about the show and how I want to present it.

18:32Because as I was just saying, like as an opening band, you know, you have different goals. Uh, and as a headline band, you know, you need to think about how to, especially a band who's been doing this as long as I have, right? It's like I've got a discoraphy that's been 26 years now. Um, you know, how do I make how do I make the new fans who discovered me through Lindamman happy while also making the people who've been, you know, uh, ride or dying it with me since 2005, like since the first album or even even earlier, you know, people in LA who got like the demos that

19:07I was sending out back in the day, like when I had my Geio Cities website, right? So, um it it it it definitely is a different approach and a different philosophy. And I think that I think that uh a lot of headline bands uh will treat it almost like as their opportunity to just kind of um be the be the contrarian artist. you know, the people like Billy Corgan who will just say like, I'm not going to play any hits. I'm just going to play the songs that I want to play. And it's like, you know, I'm I'm a massive Smashing Pumpkins fan. Like I And I actually a

19:50big Billy Corgan fan. Loved all of his like his solo work back in the early 2000s. Uh one of the most underrated albums of all time. But anyway, um I it just it doesn't compute for me when somebody says that because it's like I feel like I'm an artist in the studio and I'm an entertainer when I'm on stage. And so when I'm going out like I want to make sure that people get their money's worth. And so, you know, yeah, sometimes you you you can say like, "Oh, I'm gonna play a couple of songs for me, whatever, because I like them and I want

20:23to play them." Um, but really like I feel that it's it's my job to really just tick all the boxes, you know, give the people what they what they want because, you know, it's not about me, it's it's about them. So, it is definitely a different a slightly different headsp space, but it's still um I guess maybe about putting your ego to the side when you're thinking about how to uh prepare for it. But, you know, when you're when you're actually in the midst of it, that's when you can as a headliner, you can let your ego get have a little more free reign. Right.

21:03Well, um you know when you were talking about um well the mental gymnastics that you go through um do you find that maybe somewhere like maybe mid tour things just start automatically locking in place where it does allow you the space to let go more?

21:19Yes. Um I think um probably it's ironically it's always around like the the 3/4 mark. Um that's when things get so locked in and I think that um it it is almost sport in that you are at least for for me with the physicality of singing right it's like this in this this whole body uh endeavor and um like they say you have to sing a song 10 to 20 times before your body actually sort of breathes efficiently for singing the song. And I feel like, you know, as much as I practice, the second you get on stage, it's like everything changes, right? Like you've got the adrenaline and, you

22:13know, you you think that you you've practiced how to jump around in your, you know, in your studio or or at rehearsal or whatever. Uh but it's just a completely different monster. So, so you know, the first couple of days or maybe even weeks, that's when you're really kind of I I feel like walking the tight rope. Um, but then, you know, 3/4 2/3 3/4 of the way in, that's when you start feeling like, okay, now I know what I'm doing. Like, I know every beat that I have to to hit. Um, and then, uh, and then it's over. And then you just sort of reset your body because you know

22:52uh it's like after two weeks um your your body starts forgetting muscle memory and uh you know the all the endurance stuff that you built up just starts to go down the toilet. It's Yeah. Oh well.

23:07Well, I think it's awesome that you um have the ability to do both melodic and aggressive vocals. Um, I know that aggressive vocals especially take so much breath support um, and so kind of a two-part question, but I was wondering like how how do you like prepare for that um, before going on the road? And also like how do you maintain your vocal health while on the road because um, you know, I know that it takes a lot uh, to be able to sing every night. So just wondering if you had particular warm-ups that you like to play with. I I I think it's not even so much about warm-ups. I

23:47mean, obviously like warm-ups are Um, you know, if you're a if you're a soccer player, you're not going to go out onto the field without stretching beforehand, right? But, um, I think really the the most important things that I think a lot of people, um, overlook is is lifestyle, you know? Um, especially at my age, right? Like when when you're when you're 20 years old, you know, you can you can afford to drink and smoke and you can uh you know, maybe push yourself a little bit too hard on stage and then, you know, you get off stage and you're like, "Oh, that that feels a little that doesn't feel

24:28right." But then you wake up the next day, you're like, "Ah, I'm good to go." And then you, you know, have your beer and cigarette for breakfast and you're you're okay. Um, but when you're 42, it's like it it ain't it ain't like that. U and you know sometimes uh when I'm experimenting with things like you know trying to learn new techniques or whatever you know you do something wrong and then you're like oh man uh I you know I'm not I'm not going to be able to sing for like a day or two. So th those things happen. So, I think that's why it's so important to really like lock in

25:02the songs so you know how to sing them. So, you don't um I think of it almost like a like a play like like bowling. Like you don't want to get a gutterball. like you just always want to sort of stay within your lane and and and obviously like the more like the higher up in your register you go or like you know uh with this with the screaming stuff it's like the lane narrows and and so you just are constantly like risking hitting a gutterball and if you do that you know you you you might be sidelined for a while. So I I take I take that very very

25:40seriously. Um, I try to make sure that, you know, all of the the songs are are basically muscle memory. Um, and then on top of that, it's like you need eight hours of sleep at night. There's just there's just no negotiations. Uh, with that, it's like I'm a I'm I'm a guy who loves to drink. When I'm on tour, I try to drink as little as possible, you know, because it's just, you know, you get older, you get acid reflux and things like that, and it's terrible for your uh vocal folds. Um, so, you know, try to be uh uh smart with uh alcohol consumption and

26:19food. And so, like I I when I'm on tour, I tend to eat like the most boring foods possible. Like I never really like risk anything like spicy food, stuff like that. Don't do it. Um, and then also, you know, I uh before I go on stage, I'll use a neb nebulizer. Before I go to bed, I steam, which just kind of like, you know, whether or not it actually works, who knows? Uh, but uh it uh it certainly feels nice and and gives you some kind of at least like mental feeling that you've you've done something. And and obviously like the mental side is half the battle anyway.

26:56So, if you think that you're doing something good for yourself and it feels good, then you should do it. Um, and then, you know, for emergency situations, uh, I have a I have a I have a big package of steroids that I bought in Mexico, and when when your voice when you feel like your voice is getting, uh, uh, uh, tired sometimes at the end of the tour, it's like, well, got to start taking steroids. But I don't recommend doing that to anybody. But it's uh you know it it's something a lot of singers do.

27:28Yeah. I mean gosh it's like if you think about it especially for extended periods of time and you're midway through the tour and you're like I still have this many weeks left to go. Um you know and I'm sure your your fans very much appreciate the fact that you continue to show up every day um and and to give everything that you can um to each show. So yeah, I think what you do to get through is is what you have to do.

27:54Yeah. I mean, and like I I look at it this way is that um this this whole thing like you know touring and and uh and and playing live like if since I since I hate it as much as I do, I might as well be as good at it as I possibly can so that so that the people get something out of it. And I and you know a lot of people will say things like how can you hate playing live like you know the roar of the crowd and whatever and blah blah blah. It's the roar of the crowd what that gives me

28:30is the validation of knowing that that like it's worth it, right? So I'm not like I'm not like there going, "Oh my god, I'm so great. I'm so fantastic." I'm like, "Holy I pulled it off again." Like somehow I pulled a rabbit out of a hat again. And every night it feels that way sometime. Like it almost every night feels like I've pulled a rabbit out of a hat. I'm like, "Oh my god, I did this." Uh because I always feel like there's so much um you know, so so much of it is an uphill battle. Not just with the you know, with with my

29:02own personal issues, but it's like you know, just touring is hard. Yeah, it's just it's just hard. It's tiring and the logistics and there's always a problem to solve and you know, I have to be the boss and and as well as being like the uh being the the the performer and you know, I never wanted to be a performer and I never wanted to be a boss, but here I am. It's [laughter] just but you're like, okay, I'm here. I got to do a good job.

29:29If I don't do a good job, then then then this is just pointless on every level, right? I can just give up now if I'm not gonna do a good job.

29:38I wanted to take a moment to to thank our our wonderful friends in the chat. Um, thank you all so much for for joining us. Um, and um, I wanted to share a question from uh, Gistics KR4 and K. I I'm sorry if I'm saying that incorrectly. Um, but um, they were saying artist in the studio and entertainer on the stage. Aren't you both of it on the stage? I don't know. Uh, I never really thought of it that way because um, you know, I I think of myself as as a musician when I'm in the studio creating. Like for me, that's like the artistic side of it. And

30:17I know um and I'm not even you know I'm not trying to make like some silly claim that you know performing isn't an art uh or that um you know people who just play live are somehow like less musicians or whatever like this it's not the the intention here. It's only how how I internalize these things, right? This is all completely subjective uh viewpoint. for me, the creative aspect is the artistic side of my brain and the performing aspect is much more of a a it's an extension of it, but it's still a logic-based endeavor. And um especially with the kind of music that I

31:06play, you know, it's it's it's electronic. We're working with a lot of pre-recorded tracks. Um you know, the shows we don't they don't really change much from night to night. Um so I've always really viewed what I do as more akin to a stage play than live music, right? Because I'm not up there playing a guitar. I'm not like I'm not like Fish or Dave Matthews band where we're just going to like jam for 20 minutes and just like you know see what happens and stuff like and you know I'm nobody will believe this but I'm actually a massive fan of Dave Matthews band like like one of my favorite bands

31:46of all time. Uh so I love that stuff. I think it's great but it's not what I do. And uh so I I view I view my my my performance as like a stage performance. It's a well rehearsed uh show which does not really change much from night to night.

32:07It's almost the way you describe it. It it feels like there's a theater behind it like that.

32:12Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like a like like a broad like an off Broadway show, right? Like that's like a musical.

32:19Yeah. No, I can really see that. Um, I I feel like especially if you're really thinking of the visual element, the you know, the energy, the performance, all of it. And it's not just like executing your parts, you know, there's a lot of moving parts for sure. But I, you know, it's like I a lot of nights like I feel like, you know, I have certain things that I say, you know, to introduce different songs, like kind of bits and, you know, I've got I've got cues and and you know, I I really do think of it like these are the beats that I want to hit

32:50during this show because I've planned it this way. Like I want the show to kind of go take people through this this kind of ride and I'm and I'm sort of the conductor there.

33:02Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever have um sets where you need to adjust something on the fly? Like you might have to adjust a song like choice or um different ways of doing it.

33:14We we don't really change songs on the fly just because of the nature of like you know all the the technical stuff. Um we you know sometimes we have the ability to skip a song or something like that but it's not really like we can just add something in on the fly. Um, but I, you know, I can tell you when things do go off the rails, so to speak. Um, sometimes I I I I get I get this deer in headlights situation where I'm like, uh, what do I do? But then somehow this kind of uh survival instinct takes over and and I I'm just able to to vamp

33:55my way through it. like uh on the last show of the tour we were we did a headline show in Prague after we did the last the last show with Till Lindamman and uh during the encore uh the the power to the stage just died

34:12and I'm just sitting there in a room full of 300 people and there's there's light there's literal like white lights on me 300 people staring up at me like uh what are you going to do and I'm like I don't I don't I don't have any power here so I I don't know what to do. And then, you know, some somehow uh we kind of we were able to still entertain the crowd and and talk with them and have fun. And and what's ironic is that uh for this last tour, um I got a megaphone to kind of do this like telephone effect that's in uh in We Bring the Beat. So,

34:44we had a megaphone that was already on stage. So I was able to like talk to the crowd through the megaphone while they were putting the you know trying to figure out how to get the power power back up. But um you know these moments you really do I or I do when these things happen I'm like oh my god and my stomach sinks and I'm like I'm like you feel like am I going to die up here? Is this the end? And of course it's not right. Uh but you definitely those things do go through your mind. Um but it you know made me feel really good. Uh my drummer

35:18Mike uh who tours with me in Europe came up to me afterwards. He was like he's one of those guys who loves being on stage and he was like, "Dude, that was so great." Like, "Man, you just totally winged that and it was so fun." And it was like 10 minutes. It was 10 minutes until they got the power back up. So, in my mind, this was the long like some of the one of the longest 10-minute periods of my entire life. But then, you know, my my drummer's like, "Yeah, dude, that was fun. That was great. Yeah, we just Yeah, whatever. You're like, I'm just

35:44glad I made it out of that. [laughter] Oh my gosh. Yeah, the way you describe it too, I'm like I imagine 10 minutes would feel like an eternity because even 30 seconds can feel long.

35:56Dude, it was [laughter] really the longest 10 minutes of my

36:00Oh my gosh. I think it's really brilliant though that um it's like I think for me personally what I love about a live show sometimes is to see the humanness and the presence of the artist. like you really see the artist I think in these moments you know.

36:16So yeah.

36:18I mean do you like playing live? Are you are you the the the person who likes being on stage?

36:23Well I also like you have like a lot of uh I I starting to like re-ransate it as um um energy and excitement before I go on stage. that that that pit in your stomach um that can be translated as nervousness, but I like to look at it as sort of like the bubbling energy,

36:45Yes. Yes. And um also, I mean, for me personally, just I I grew up being very bullied, so people looking at me is something that I find terrifying. Um but the instant the music starts, I feel like I'm inside of it. Um and so I really feed off of the energy of my bandmates. So, that's something that's helped me a lot is just feeding off of the actual

37:09vibrations and the music and the people.

37:12Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

37:14Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then and and I think it's the people themselves, like when you look into someone's eyes that's there to connect with you, I think that's really special, you know?

37:25Yeah. I mean,

37:27it's it's either it it's either that validating feeling that I was discussing earlier where you're like, okay, you know, this this is why I'm here. This is why why I do this. Uh but then there's also the times when you look and somebody's just like [laughter] just making that face like they hate you. And you know, it's happened obviously much more often when you're opening for another band, right? As opposed to when it's your audience. [laughter] If it's your audience, they shouldn't be making the the stank face. But like, you know, they're they're as as amazing as all those Tinderman shows were, there were definitely some people in the front row

38:00who were just doing this for like your 40 minutes. You're just like,

38:04"Oh, no."

38:05And [laughter] then you're like, "How you doing, Amsterdam?" And they're just [laughter] like you're like, "I can see you." You know, like I you're not that far away from me. I can I literally looking right in your eyes. They're just

38:23I know that face.

38:26Yeah. So, it's a blessing and a curse the being able [laughter] to look them in the eyes. For sure.

38:30This is true. This is true. Yes. Well, then um I you know, I've I've chatted with other people, you know, other artists who have said, but the people that you are there to see you, you're playing for them. So, that's I think that's a saving grace when you go past those. Yeah,

38:47for sure. I think,

38:50but I'll also give you another flip side or another way to look at it. Sometimes for me, it's harder to to be to be a headliner because I feel like the there's so much more pressure, right? Like like these people bought a ticket to see you and you have to deliver, right? Like you can't let them down. You owe them this. When I'm a support band, there's almost like an like there's like an antagonistic side of it where you're just kind of like I dare you to hate me. And I've also kind of like at least with some of these uh Lindamman shows cuz like I said basically like 99% of them

39:27were fantastic, but there you know there are there are sometimes pockets of the audience where you can tell they're not vibing or you know you do have a night where you're like this crowd isn't into me at all. And then you just have to take on this sort of like this this perspective of like look I'm here. this is my stage now and I'm going to show you who I am whether you like it or not. And so taking this kind of like cheeky like uh uh no like I don't give a I don't know if you can swear on this so I'm like I don't

40:07how about it?

40:08Okay. [laughter] Well, I don't know. Oh, I don't want to I didn't want to get you demonetized or anything, but you you can definitely have this you you can definitely have this like you attitude where it's where it's just like I don't care if you like me because

40:22if you you're going to we're going to both walk away from this and not remember each other. So, you just you just get to have this antagonistic thing which is which can be fun.

40:33Absolutely. And I don't know, I mean, as you were as you were sharing that, I was you know, it's something that I really admire about you is that you're very courageous in in your work and how you share. And it's it's very it I mean, you might feel fear about it, but it comes across as fearless to even be able to put it out there, you know? I I I guess um but I don't I don't know any other way, right? So I I guess I feel I mean it's a compliment when if people tell you that you're courageous and whatever and I and I

41:13could easily be like oh well yeah I know it's it's just what but you know I'm not I'm not uh I I've never I've never felt like I had any other option.

41:27Yeah. Um, and I think it's because, you know, I I I grew up um, never feeling like I had a right to exist, which is probably a very dark thing to say, but, you know,

41:44um, I I never got like the this sort of um, growing up, you know, not from peers, not really from from family. Um, it was just kind of like, uh, I had to just do what I needed to do to survive and and I did what I thought was was right. And I didn't even know if it was wrong because there was nobody really telling me it was right or wrong. It was just kind of like I'm just just making my way through. And so I just kind of developed this unwavering um focus on doing the things that I like to do and not being really able to entertain any

42:28other idea or any other possibilities which I actually think is kind of limiting as a person, right? like you should be able to to to to think outside of your narrow uh perspective, but I think it's just sort of like a symptom of the way that I that I grew up and uh and uh so I don't know. I it doesn't feel courageous to me. It just feels like how I'm wired.

42:55And maybe if I could see it, maybe I would do it differently, right?

42:59Yeah. No, but I I feel like that um something that might feel like um is embedded in who you are is something that I feel like when um other people observe it, they're like, "Oh, that actually feels like um someone can step forward and do something like that." And maybe I can too. Um I think it's a little contagious in a good way, you

43:26Yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, I was actually discussing this with my with my wife the other day because, um, uh, you know, I guess in my in my, uh, little aesthetic perfection world, I'm in a leadership position, something I never really wanted and and and, uh, don't particularly enjoy like being a boss and telling doing the hiring and the firing and all, you know, I I don't I don't like that. Um, and uh, you know, uh, my wife in her work, she's the same way. Like she has a leadership position, but she doesn't really like it. Um, but we, you know, we were talking about the fact

44:03that I think it's the people who do these things, they take these roles, um, or they're they're able to be better at them than people who want them because it's like

44:15you you just do what you think is right and you have no other um, ulterior motives, right? It's like you're not a leader because you want power. you you're a leader because there's nobody else to do the thing and all you want is the thing to be done and to be done right. And I think when people see that they see somebody doing something like taking action and it working like I understand that that is uh that is something that is uh engaging right like and and I I see it in myself when I look at other people who are who I I view as great leaders

44:50and then I feel envious. I'm like oh man I wish I could be that kind of that kind of leader. So like I I I know that that's that's part of the human psychology there. [laughter]

45:01Yeah, I know. It's it's it's I think it's interesting because like um uh from what I've observed with your with your work and your evolution. Um uh and I haven't been around from the very beginning of the um aesthetic perfection journey, but um I think uh you are definitely a creature of evolution. Um, so I imagine like you're always striving to to grow and evolve um you know as a as a creative um you know as an artist. So I imagine that's part of what drives you um you

45:34Yeah. I mean, I uh I I uh I grew up with, you know, uh bands like Mel Manson and Nails and uh and you know, obviously like by extension discovering artists like Bowie and and my mom was listening to top 40 radio all the time when I was a kid. like Madonna and just like watching these artists continually reinvent themselves really just kind of tickled a nerve in my brain. Like I was always drawn to to artists like that and you know Queen probably one of my favorite bands of all time. Um, I think it's partly u the ADHD side of my brain which just constantly needs some new

46:22form of stimulation or new challenge to face, right? Um, but like whenever an artist felt like they were just kind of resting on their laurels, um, and sort of doing just the bare minimum or they're like, "Oh, hey, this formula works." And then they just keep repeating it over and over again, I just immediately lose interest. Um,

46:47and and I I just like think about when Mechanical Animals came out, you know, Marilyn Manson 1997, I think. Um, you know, I'm like this this 16-year-old, 17-year-old Molgoth kid, you know, I I I thought that I wanted um Antichrist Superstar 2.0, like I wanted this kind of like grinding industrial metal thing, whatever. Um, and then he put out Mechanical Animals. Hated it. absolutely despised it. Um, but I respected the change and now actually going back, you know, all these years later, I think that it's the best album. So, I think you artistically need to take those risks even if you risk alienating your audience because maybe

47:36um you're saying something that they're not going to be able to understand for a decade, you know, like maybe maybe it's not the right time for this thing that you've made right now, but that's okay. Like this is where you're at artistically. you need to do that and and put it out in into the world, right? And I think about how was it Sound of Silence uh was wasn't didn't get popular until three years after it was released. Something it's just we can't control these things. Like we don't we don't know what the zeitgeist is going to be when we're creating something. We don't know where the the head headspace of our

48:13audience is going to be when we're um when we're creating. You just you just have to be as true to your artistic intuition as possible and you know uh all repercussions be damned because

48:29you know we got into or at least I got into this kind of music because it was different and because it was dangerous and because it took risks. Um or yeah band like my life with the Thrill Co, right? every record totally different. And they you just you you you have to you have to just understand that um you're doing this for you and if the audience comes along with you, great. If they don't, also great.

49:04Because at the end of the day, it's like you're doing this because you want to take risks. And if you're not going to take any risks, then you're not going to reap the rewards of of those risks.

49:17Do you ever find that you write ahead of yourself? Like a few years later, you're like, "Oh, it makes sense now." Like song actually my music.

49:27I [laughter] I at least when I'm writing it, right? like it really is it really is with with

49:35you know hindsight that I'm able to kind of parse what was really really going on in my head.

49:42because um I don't really write lyrics to um express a fully formed narrative. Um, I I just have a sort of vague feeling in my I don't know like in my gut or you know I have vague images in my brain and I try to express them with words and very often um you know I write lyrics by just singing stream of conscious so I'll just hit record in my uh in my DAW and just sing nonsense and sometimes words will slip out and then you're like ooh and I've always described it as as it feels like you're falling in love, right? Like it just you feel that kind of like thing

50:25right in the pit of your stomach. You're like, "Oh, that that that feels nice. That that feels right." And so it's a whole it's a full body reaction. Your body is telling you that these words that have come out mean something. And if even if you don't understand what they mean, they mean something. And um and so I I just write in this way. And I think, you know, very often I have no idea what my songs are really about until, you know, years later and you look back and you go, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense." But I think um these days uh I I don't

51:03even think about whether or not I like anything that I'm writing. I just know if it feels kind of like I'm doing something go going in the right direction because you know um I used to think that I was writing to suit my own taste like I'm trying to write you a lot of people say I want to write the music that I want to hear. Well, think about the first time you ever heard I don't know the the the the album that blew my mind was uh Broken by 9in nails. So I'm like a 12-year-old kid. Uh my mom's co-orker suggests that uh that I

51:40listen to Nine Inch Nails. I all I knew at the time was Green Day and Offspring and stuff. And so imagine what happened to this, you know, 11 12-year-old kid's brain when he heard Wish for the first time. Like I I didn't know that was the music I needed until I heard it. And I think that when artists try to write what they think they want, they are uh basically putting themselves in a box and not allowing them to maybe write the music that their subconscious brain wants them to hear or wants to make. And you know, you should allow yourself not to not to even like the music that

52:19you're making because I think about some of my favorite songs are songs that I hated the first time I heard them. You know, it took me a while to it took a while for my taste to catch up to the sort of forward thinking nature of the art. So, I just these days I just try to create and just kind of follow that like love feeling like is that right? That feels right. Okay, whatever. Is it good? I don't know. Is it the best thing I've ever made? Probably not. But am I enjoying making it? Am I doing my best? Yes. Okay, it's enough. I find that um sometimes

52:58um words on a page feel so different than when you actually sing it. You were talking about the body feeling. Like I do think that the body does really inform when something just hits, you

53:10Yeah. I've I've written so many lyrics and and like just sat there pen and paper, you know, for hours, grinded through it and been like, "Oh my god, this is perfect." And then I'd go to sing it. I'm like, "This doesn't work."

53:23And you're like, "I got to rewrite the whole thing." And then you and then I do this exercise where I just loop the part and I sing nonsense and I've written the lyrics in 10 minutes.

53:32So, I think you got to kind of get out of the your conscious mind. Get out of your cerebral mind, your your mind that has expectations and tastes and ego and all that kind of stuff. You just you just sort of respond to your body and your subconsciousness and and just let whatever happens happen.

53:53Do you have ways of of being able to easily slip into that or is that something that just comes naturally to

54:00Um well you see I I used to write trying yeah uh meet some expectations. Um and it was really just through the process of you know doing this for years and years and years and years that I kind of came to this place where um really I can turn on inspir I can turn on inspiration like a faucet. Um that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes find you know hit road roadblocks that happens but then whenever I I uh I hit a roadblock I step away and uh sometimes I'll come back weeks or months later and then the answer is clear because my conscious mind is not hearing the song anymore.

54:48It's just my subconscious and my subconscious is reacting to what it's hearing. It's like oh yeah okay that's wrong that's wrong. you know, you can easily just pull these things apart. And I think I think that the most difficult thing, probably the most advanced artistic skill that a person needs to develop is to just get their conscious mind as much out of the process as possible. And once you can do that, you you find that creativity really is a muscle. The more you're creative, the more you can do it. like, you know, uh I've had people hit me up for uh songwriting. Uh you know, basically it's

55:23like, "Hey, write songs for this other artist. Uh we need three songs." And you're like, "Okay." And they're like, "You know, you can have a couple of weeks." And then the next day I'm like, "Here's three songs. I wrote them for you." And they're like, "What?" It's like, "Yeah, of course."

55:36It's easy. It's three songs. It's easy. Three hours. I can do that.

55:43Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting when you are given a construct um you know and it's very specific. Um I feel like um the mind is so incredibly adaptable and adept at being able to like navigate that. So yeah.

55:57Yeah. I mean I love it. It's like some people have asked me how do you stay creative after all these years? It's like I'm more creative than I was 20 years ago. Like I I I love music more now and on a on a on a deeper level than I ever did as a teenager. And like I loved music as a teenager, but like it is it is just my everything. It is just all I think about. Like I'll I'll be sitting there, I'll be staring off into space like writing music in my head and then I'll and then my wife will be like, "Hello, we were talking, you know, we're

56:35having dinner. Are you writing music in your head again?" And I'm like, "Yeah." So, it's just um it I can't I can't even turn it off. I And I love it. I I wouldn't want it any other way.

56:50Do ideas come out to you uh come out as well while you're on the road? Um or is it are you in a different space?

56:57The ideas never stop. So, the way that I've uh sort of described it is that um you know, if you've seen like the lottery ball machines, right, where it's just like a like it's a big glass ball and then there's a bunch of other balls with with numbers written on it and it's all bouncing around like crazy. And then, you know, if you focus really hard like every now and then you'll see like, oh, there's an 11. Oh, there's a two. There's a this, whatever. Um but, you know, usually it just looks like chaos. That's the inside of my brain. So, the inside of my brain is this lottery ball

57:27machine and and all of these blurry balls bouncing around in there. Those are ideas. And and and if I look hard enough, I see an 11 and I grab the 11 and then I put it out, you know, like that's that's how it works for me. So, when I'm on the road, I'm constantly bombarded with ideas. I do my best to record them with voice notes or, you know, little memos on my phone. Um I now have a uh can show you here. Uh I have a I have like a a lyric book which I used for writing ideas. Um and then I started uh what I do now is it's um it's almost

58:07like a collage, right? So I'll I'll take I'll photocopy pages from my favorite book and then I'll do blackout poetry. So I'll find the the lines that that uh resonate with me and then I write them down and then I add them to things and you know so I just have this this whole book just of like art and lyrics and everything and it's just I don't know like it's it's just this piece of artistic chaos that feels like the inside of my brain and like I cherish it so much and uh so I try to you know do things like this and if I can't do

58:39anything then I just you know I'll I'll collage into it church.

58:44That's really beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that, Danielle. It's really beautiful.

58:49Absolutely. Like I think that's that's the thing like it's so important to me to try to like share these things with people because I know how much it helped me and and you know the other day like a colleague of mine um he texted me and he was like, "Hey uh you know I'm just kind of feeling down and I'm feeling uninspired and this and that and you know do you have any suggestions for me?" And I was like, "Go buy a scrap go buy a scrapbook and just do this." And I sent him I sent him a picture of that. And he was like,

59:17"That's a great idea." And you know, it's not my idea.

59:21I I don't remember who came up with this, but it wasn't me.

59:24Like none of these ideas are mine. And

59:28I think it would be stupid and egotistical and I don't know, unfair to try and gatekeep these things. Like I want to share this stuff as far and wide as I can because it helped me so much. And if I can help other people and you know if in 20 years some kid comes up to me and says, "Dude, I saw you on Unwritten Rules of the Road and you talked about your your your little scrapbook collage book and holy it changed my life." Like that'll make me feel great. That'll make me feel like I'm doing my job and, you know, paying as much forward as I possibly can

1:00:02because I've I've, you know, I'm blessed. I'm very very blessed.

1:00:06I I think that's amazing. I mean, I've I personally believe that the world is a better place when people get to learn how to express. And sometimes it can be hard to f at first know like how do I even start like,

1:00:20you know, how do I put this down? What how do I put down what's in my head, you

1:00:24Yeah. You just do it.

1:00:28Just grab a microphone. Here's the thing. Just grab a microphone, hit record, and start singing whatever comes to mind. You'll be surprised. You'll you'll be you'll be surprised by the truth and the honesty that comes out of your lips when you're not thinking about I I I love the um getting outside of your head um philosophy. Absolutely. Um I think it's something where like at least the artists that I connect with it feels like it comes from very very deep within but maybe less heady. [laughter]

1:01:02If that makes sense. Yes.

1:01:06it's it's I mean it's different. It's different for everybody, but I do I do see like threads of similarity like woven throughout creatives and you know I find myself conversing with another creative mind, it's like even though we could be miles apart, like there's still this thing that connects us and we still sort of speak this same language. And I think that there are insights that we can share between one another that will make our artistic lives easier or more

1:01:47Yeah, absolutely. Um Yeah. Yeah. And it's always an incredible like I I I call them kindred spirits, but when you you meet your other kindreds and um and you feel like uh the more you bubble the cauldron, it's like the more um beauty I guess that you can create in the world um that people can connect with.

1:02:08Yeah. Um we're getting some more questions in the chat. Um thank you all again so much for this. Um uh so uh Raz Razana Spear 8506 is saying Daniel what's your favorite Alice song and Tash what's your favorite aesthetic perfection song? Um I I don't know if you've heard Alice but I will I will say that I think Never Enough is actually my favorite aesthetic perfection song. Um yes uh you've written so many great ones. Um for some reason that that's the one that's like gets looped for me. Um, yeah. Yeah, that one really

1:02:47Uh, well, I I know Ros, she's one of my uh awesome uh Patreon supporters and Perfect Society representing here. Uh she means Alice Cooper for sure.

1:02:58And uh and so and so it's going to be uh it's definitely going to be poison.

1:03:03Nice. [laughter]

1:03:06Yeah. Raz uh I think we connected through the XRL7 universe.

1:03:10Oh, okay. So, awesome. Yeah, I got to also be a voice um there. So,

1:03:16Oh, yeah. Very cool.

1:03:17Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, really love really love the universe. So, um and um we actually getting a question as well from Shusher Catz. Um, hi Danielle. Hi Tash. Thanks for your time here. I like what you said about bands having their place, especially as a support act. That's really humble advice. Big respect for that. Have you had any difference of opinions on that or anything like joshing for position with those closing egos? I I mean it depends on what you mean like have I encountered this like on with with other bands uh or if I like have en encountered this in my own sort of crew like my own space like so

1:04:04obviously um no one has a perfect hiring record and uh I've definitely made some mistakes in my hiring decisions in the past uh but you know I do my best to um surround myself with uh not only people who um are high integrity people um but also people who share a similar philosophy, right? like um I try not to um be around or try not to bring people into my inner orbit, you know, like careerists, you know, people who are really only like trying to climb the the the ladder of the business. I mean, look, we're all trying to succeed, but I'm sure anybody here who's worked in the industry knows

1:04:58like what a careerist is like and and how kind of insufferable they can be. Um and uh you know people who are also like me in that they are driven by a desire to produce the best work possible and not only to serve their egos, right? Like um you know our our sound engineer uh Jared, we try to take him on every possible tour that we can. Um, he is one of the most uh insane unfiltered people I have ever met in my entire life. But he is the most earnest uh loyal and uh dedicated people I have ever met. Like I've never seen a sound

1:05:45engineer behind the desk jumping and throw like throwing fists in the air like like just as enthused about the show as you know the audience. And you know that's because he cares so deeply about the music and doing a great job. And you know sometimes you'll come off stage and you'll like I had a great show. How about you? No, you know I was having pro these technical problems with this that and you know it it like really ruins his day when he didn't have a good sounding. Like I know that his sound like on his worst day is better than you know some other

1:06:26uh sound engineer who's you know working in the the upper echelons of the music industry who makes 10 times his fee and just couldn't care less about anything other than their paycheck right so these are the people that I try to surround myself with um and you know that philosophy also extends to you know knowing your place being respect respectful, being humble, all of that kind of stuff. And uh you know, obviously sometimes you uh don't uh you don't get to choose the bands that you're on tour with or you don't get to choose the uh you know, the people that uh you're surrounded by at festivals.

1:07:02And I've absolutely seen, you know, egos uh get wildly out of order and uh you know, you just kind of have to shrug and say, "Well, not my circus, not my monkeys, not my problem."

1:07:18Yeah. Yeah. I imagine there's a certain level of um almost like a letting go that you have to to be able to navigate, I think.

1:07:28Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's like look, control what you can control and then the things that you can't control, just let go of.

1:07:34And, you know, that's that's the thing why it's so important to me to have a very um um connected inner circle where it's like, you know, these people are your ride or dies and uh and and they are always going to show up for you and you're always going to show up for them, right? So, um, whenever whenever people are being stupid or obnoxious outside of that, I don't care, right? This is just kind of

1:08:05it's just totally out outside of uh my my sphere of influence and uh happy to keep it that way. And like I said, made

1:08:13my hiring record is not 100%. Nobody's is, but I I feel very very uh blessed to have the uh the the band and crew that I that I do now. I imagine it's like now that you've, you know, found your way to to being in that place that it it must be such a joy, you know, to get to to travel together and work together. Like that's that makes a huge difference for sure.

1:08:38Absolutely. I mean, the uh

1:08:40um the uh why am I losing the the word for this? Um morale,

1:08:48the morale on the ship is just like the most important thing, right? Like if morale is low, like it's it's just devastating at every level. Like the shows get bad, the the the um you know, just anytime there's a problem, it's there's there's um just it just becomes more difficult to fix. When morale is high and everybody's happy and everybody feels like they're working towards the same goal, it's like it doesn't matter what goes wrong, what gets broken, everybody's there trying to fix it and it doesn't matter what their job description is, right? It's like, you know, if if I'm the if I'm the the

1:09:24singer and the tour manager and, you know, I have to get on my hands and knees and crawl around some like grimy club floor to try to get the power plugged in, like I'm going to do that, you know. Um, no, there's no job that's too good for me, right? Um, and I think that uh when you adopt that mentality, then you know, sort of everybody takes notice and everybody follows suit and you just have a super positive experience with the people that you're that you're on the road with and uh, everybody's got everybody's backs.

1:10:03Yeah. I um, actually we're getting a question from Music Advocate 3. Um, I know you picked up Jada for drumming on the last tour. Um, was it because of the first drum drummer scheduling issues? Um, then second, how was she? And lastly, who is lined up for this tour?

1:10:21Wait, which name was that? I think.

1:10:26No, we had Brooke.

1:10:27Yeah, Jada. Brooke. No, no, we had Brooke on the So on the 2023 tour um that we did in the US. We had uh Brooke and Noisith because my European band couldn't get visas. So, just to just to to to roll the clock back a little bit, you know, um my live band in 2023 was uh Gillette's and Constants uh day. And uh just before we were going to go on that uh European tour, uh it was like, well, not only had had Till tapped Joey to be his drummer, Till was also like, hey, that girl uh Constance who's playing guitar for you, she's great. Uh I want her, too. So then

1:11:13I just lost my whole band before I went on that tour. So I had to put together a whole new uh band and I found that in uh Mike Chop uh a drummer from uh Vienna and then um Lord Jar Jarinsky uh a French guitarist and so then they came on that uh 2023 European tour with Till Lynman with me. Absolutely fantastic. Decided to do uh the US tour with Till and uh looked into visas. it was absolutely impossible to bring them out because they weren't members of the band for more than a year. Like that's the kind of USCIS rules. Uh so uh I basically had to find

1:11:52a whole new band for the US tour. And so then uh we found uh Brook C, absolutely fantastic drummer from uh New York. And then um and then uh we uh actually uh had uh an audition video from Noisith from the the previous tour, but because she was based in Los Angeles, um we didn't think that it would make sense to fly her out for Europe when we had a good candidate in lore. So then um yeah then uh I had a new band in the US and I decided for the last tour to make it the best of both worlds. Uh Brooke is now

1:12:31playing with uh uh Sully the singer of Godmax band. So uh it was Noisith Mike and Lore. So now we have a mixture of an Americans and Europeans. And of course for the US tour can't bring Mike. Mike is uh still needs a visa and uh Joey's free. So Joey's joining us again. glad to have him back. It's first time I think in two and a half years and then we're going to have have noises. So, uh it's a I know it's like musical chairs in this band, but uh I think all these people are fantastic musicians and I'm just uh super humbled and grateful that

1:13:05like so many cool and talented people like want to work with me. Like, you know, there's so many bands that can't like find like one or two cool musicians and I just I have like this mly crew of people to choose from all the time. like like how did my band get this?

1:13:20No, it's amazing. It's like um you know when you have like a supercharged group and you just you're like everybody brings something really great. Um it's really inspiring to get to play in that.

1:13:32Yeah, for sure. Um Mr. uh Gelato, again, I'm so sorry if I'm mispronouncing these. Um is asking um if you plan on releasing a best of double album. Um It's About Time. Oh, I see. Uh, I don't know. I never thought about that. Um, interesting. Okay. This is actually the first time I thought about it, so I'm like processing it. Uh, I will definitely keep that in mind. I will process this idea. I, you know, I'm not really somebody who likes to live in the past all that much. And I know I know that's sounds funny coming from somebody who's like, you know, re-recorded and

1:14:12re-released like two albums from his uh from his discoraphy. Um but that was more of a a logistical necessity as you know some of these uh at least for my debut album Close to Human like I lost all the files in a hard drive crash. So if I wanted to release it for the 20-y year anniversary, I needed to like literally re-record it. So that's what I did. Um, but uh I'm just so I'm not a nostalgic guy. Like I I find nostalgia to be counterproductive in the world of arts because we're always trying to like new sonic horizons, right? And so spending too much time thinking about

1:14:56the past, it's not something I really enjoy doing, but uh you know uh a best of could be interesting for uh for all the the fans out there. I'll think about it. Um Phoenix Jade 44 is asking, uh what is decompression like for you after a long Um, it's weird because, you know, I think that for the majority of the time that you're on tour, it's really like fight or flight. Like, you're just you're just in this kind of like survival mode. And I always get the feeling that I don't I don't sleep that well. So, sometimes I'll, you know, I'll sleep 11 hours when

1:15:41I'm on tour, but I don't feel well rested because it's like the quality of the sleep is so bad. Um, but I'm just constantly forcing myself to sleep as much as I can because, you know, I want to make sure that like my voice is is fit. Um, but, uh, when I get home, then I'm finally able to relax, right? And, and you know, I I think the first couple of nights I always wake up in in my own bed at home totally disoriented because I think I've finally allowed myself to relax enough to go into a super deep sleep. And then that's when I wake up

1:16:15and I'm like, "Oh my god, where the hell am I?" Right? And then it's just like, "This I don't recognize. This isn't my bunk. This isn't a hotel room. What the [laughter] hell's going on?" And then, you know, then usually like I'll feel that like my cat is next to me or my wife is there. And then you're like, oh, I'm home."

1:16:34Ah, okay. That's all right. And then you you can go back to sleep. So, it's it's it's very disorienting. It's it's super duper disorienting. But um you know uh I like it because uh it's it's essentially feels like coming out of uh out of uh warp [clears throat] speed or like hyperspace in Star Wars or whatever. It's like when you finally it's like everything's just going super super duper fast and then you slow down it goes and you're like, "Oh, now I I go to the grocery store. [laughter] I make food. I scoop cat litter box. Yes. Take out trash. You know, it's just

1:17:14it's like you're you're you're now a normal person again.

1:17:18And for me, like I enjoy I like I like that. Like I like doing the dishes. I don't know why doing the dishes is a very zen uh activity for me. So uh you know I I I like coming out of the the the hyperspace. I like being I like being back to normal. Um, not really. Uh, I don't know like um you know when when you're on when you're on tour and you know you're you're getting treated like you're someone special and uh you know you walk around you sometimes when you're playing in these these big productions, right? Like you know you just try to go to a restaurant

1:18:00in town and people recognize you, right? or there's people staying at your same hotel and and they they want pictures or what it just it's such a a thing that like warps your reality. Um and I think that that's probably why so many people get these, you know, really weird uh ego issues, right? It's like we, as I said at the top of this, like we don't get into music because we have a healthy relationship with our egos. But then like now if you have any measure of success, people are constantly treating you like you're uh someone special and and they need to, you know, be nervous

1:18:35to talk to you or something like that. That's that's so that's disorienting and like warps the gravity beneath you, right? Like I don't like that. Like that makes me feel very very uncomfortable.

1:18:46Uh so, uh I love I love being home and doing the dishes and going shopping and not having people talk to me and you know, it's like obviously like I like that people like my music and want to take a picture, right? It's it's it's nice. Um, but you know if too much of that just distorts your whole universe and I think that's not healthy for anyone really.

1:19:15Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's so important to to fill refill the well and to come back to your ground and you know do all the things that make you who you

1:19:26Yeah. I mean, what do they say is like, uh, if you, uh, if you get successful and you spend your whole life on tour, you're just going to start writing songs about being on tour, and nobody can relate to that.

1:19:39You know, you need to, like you said, refill the well. You need to you need to be a normal person and live your life and and live at a speed that allows you to think and feel and reflect and all that kind of stuff. Because when you're again, when you're on the when you're on the road, it's fight or flight. And there's just

1:19:58the there's just not enough time to be a like a well-rounded individual.

1:20:07Yeah. It's a completely different zone of being. For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And especially I think when you're on longer longer tours, which I know you do have coming up like And not only that, you're you're flying across the pond, so that's also like a double,

1:20:24you know, a double whammy there for

1:20:28Yeah. Yeah. And it make, you know, it makes it take longer, too, because so, um, you know, uh, I am trying to use that time like I'm I'm flying out two weeks before the tour just so I can, you know, spend time with friends and family, you know, visiting uh, family in Oregon and then going to uh, visit with friends in LA and do uh, do pre-production and all that kind of stuff, which also costs time. So,

1:20:54you know, I'm I'm going to be gone for almost two months again. So, it's just It's it's a lot. It's it I think people really underestimate how

1:21:03how much happens in the span of two months and how much you miss and uh in your life in the lives of your loved ones and all that kind of stuff. It's just like I said, it it it totally like warps and distorts your world and uh you know, you don't even know what day it is, what time it is, all that kind of stuff. It's just Yeah. It's It's not a [snorts] place you want to live permanently. For sure.

1:21:28Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I mean, and I, you know, I think it's one of those things as as you've shared that um playing live is is very difficult for you, but it is something that you do. Um and and it is I think again like it it is a way that you connect to your fans. It's a way that your fans are able to experiencing you experience you in a in a live format. Um, and that's amazing. And I, and I'm sure that your fans, um, who support you also very much respect and support your your time that you need to be at home and to, you know,

1:22:05regground yourself.

1:22:07Yeah. I mean, I I'm I've already said that I'm, you know, I'm I'm in a very uh blessed position. like I'm I'm super grateful for not not just you know the kind of success that I've had but also you know the people who have made it possible because uh you know my sort of like diehard uh fans you know on on Patreon and and all that kind of stuff like they're so um understanding and so like so totally cool to give me space you know to uh just kind of be a human being and and uh find whatever inspiration I need to come back and keep being creative and and

1:22:55making stuff for them. It's like I've I I know that there are a lot of uh other artists with with fans who are less maybe a little bit more intrusive. Let's just say that. So, um I'm I'm very grateful for the space that like even my most diehard of fans like allow me. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's I think it's like um gosh, it's like it's something that all artists dream of is to have um fans that can really understand not just your your work but your your need to be a human. [laughter]

1:23:30Because we all are, right?

1:23:32Yeah. Absolutely.

1:23:33Yes. Yes. Um we're getting a fan from Shusher Cat. Um uh when did you have that moment of I'm going independent? Uh, were there any challenges moving away from other labels and the posit positives that came from that?

1:23:49Well, um, yes. Um the thing is is that um as I said earlier, I've always sort of a weird kind of north star in that I just kind of knew generally where I was going and what I wanted and there was really no saying otherwise, right? And you know, uh, I spent probably the first few years of my kind of buying into the artistic fantasy of just getting to be an artist and not worrying about the business side of things. Um, I I was very very very entitled. Um, and so on top of that, I was also very stubborn thought I knew everything. And so that

1:24:55that created a lot of tension between me and my labels, you know, and and I had management at the time. And it just we never saw eye to eye on anything. And I think everything sort of came to a head um as streaming was emerging as the dominant force in the industry and you know the whole music economy was shifting from being um focused on albums to to focus on singles. And you know kind of in the in the interim I you know in those intervening years like I started learning that it is just a fantasy to believe that you are going to get to be an artist only and not

1:25:40focus on the business aspects because um not only was I uh not making wise business decisions or not really making business decisions at all, I was just basically being taken advantage left and right? Because I was just signing any contract that was put under my nose. And after a while, you realize it's like nobody's on my side. Everybody's on their own side. And so if I'm not going to advocate for myself, no one's going to. And so that's when I started, you know, really paying attention to the industry, how things were developing. started developing my own very um um rigid ideas about how I wanted to uh

1:26:27run my business. And so, like I said, that that led to a lot of tension between my management and my labels and everything. And then I think it came to a head when I said, "I want to start doing singles. I don't even want to think about albums." They were like, "This doesn't make any sense." And I was like, "You know what? I'm out." And so, uh, I I walked away from both of my labels. Uh, I walked away from my management and, uh, and I thought it was going to be easy. It was not easy. I really took all of their work for granted. Like I, you know, I I really

1:27:00did believe that like I don't need a label. I don't need management. Blah blah blah blah blah. I absolutely didn't need them. How do I say this? like when you're first starting out, you don't need them. And I think that maybe I wasn't in a place where I should have been represented by a manager or did, you know, didn't really need a label. Guess in 2005 you needed a label because we were still driven by uh print publish uh print ads and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, I I think at that time I really just needed to break away and figure out how to run a business my

1:27:41myself alone. Figure out uh what royalties are and how they're calculated and the costs of printing and distributing CDs and uh running your own merch store and all of this kind of, you know, insane amount of work that I thought was easy. discovered it was not not easy. Um I actually even wrote my manager a couple of years afterwards and I was like, "Hey, I just wanted to apologize for taking you for granted." And he was like, "Wow, uh thank you for that because I totally did. I did totally take advantage of him

1:28:14or take take him for granted." Um, and so, you know, um, I did that for 11 or 12 years. And, you know, I grew the band, um, as much as I possibly could. And I, uh, actually just in the last, I would say like 12 months feel like I hit a ceiling. Like, I just can't, the workload is too much. Like, I could only take myself so far. So, I mean, I don't know if you're aware or if uh your viewers are aware, but I three months ago ressigned to Out of Line. And so now I'm still like run my business like an independent artist, but I feel

1:28:55like now I understand enough about uh where I want to go uh in terms of my business, but also I feel like they have adjusted their perspective to be a bit more malleable to my ideas. So I feel like actually we have a a very wonderful working relationship now. like really just kind of better than I could have ever hoped for and I feel like we were all sort of on the same team headed towards the same goal and so I'm very very grateful for that but I think it took you know these this 10y year long basically being the the prodical son right like having to go out into the

1:29:39world and then you know come back but I think um you know still like a label is something that is that you only need to um partner with once you've reached a certain level because so much of this work can and should be done by the artists like is until you reach a point where you simply cannot handle the workload anymore now it's time to kind of graduate to something like that and I think that um what artists really need to do is is understand every facet of the business like do everything yourself understand how everything works all the royalties all the, you know, all of the

1:30:20super unsexy, boring business stuff. Figure that out. And once you've reached a certain level, you can go into a record contract negotiation with the leverage and the knowledge to advocate for yourself in a in a really powerful

1:30:41Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I really love that. um like you've been on the journey on both sides of the coin. So, and I think probably because you have such a deep awareness of of what's going on that you were able to um probably have a very clear idea of saying like this is what I need.

1:31:01You know, I think that's a big part of it is is knowing that.

1:31:06I had a I had a a bulletoint list that was like this long.

1:31:11it was extensive. It was very extensive.

1:31:14Yeah. But I imagine that from having done all of this yourself, like you probably have a very clear idea of like, okay, these are actually the things I need and these are all the things that I already have going for me. So, you know, like how can we grow that from there? And and that's what I mean like with the leverage where it's like you know when when the relationship is entirely one-sided, you know what you also have to think about it from their perspective is like you know what are what do you have to offer offer them because at the beginning of of your

1:31:48career um you know you're you're basically only interested in what they can offer you. But if you view these types of relationships and I and I try to view every business relationship this way now is that it is a symbiotic relationship where you are both um optimized and working towards benefiting each other then I think that you find that uh it's I'm trying to think of the the best way to explain like because I'm trying not to use like too many like business lingoy terms or whatever like you say something stupid like synergy right but uh it's it's it's just um when when each side is not indebted to each

1:32:44other when each side is working for each other towards a shared goal it's just it's works so much better and I and and as you said like it I needed all of those years to fully understand what it what it is I even needed because if you had asked me 15 years ago, what do you want out of a record contract? I couldn't have told you.

1:33:03But, you know, when when when it came down to uh when I started negotiating with with labels uh like six months ago, um you know, I I just already had it had the bulletoint list off the top of my head because I knew every single thing that I wanted and why and I could defend it. I could say why I wanted these things and I can also explain like hey this is what I bring to the table. This is what you can you bring to the table. This is what I need from you. And I think a lot of people also treat uh record labels as a bank. They just try

1:33:38to take money, borrow money, borrow money, borrow money and then by the end they're in just a massive uh like debt hole that they need to pay themselves out of. Um and then you don't have any leverage anymore. So, you want to make sure that you are as balanced as possible with everyone that you're working with on every level. Like, try not to be indebted to anyone for anything. And and if you have to be, then, you know, make sure you you get out of that debt as quickly as you can.

1:34:12Yeah, absolutely. And I I do love that. Um, you know, it's you're talking about coming to the conversation in a really honest way, um, and a really self-aware way where you're like, okay, um, you know, if if an artist is talking to a label to actually go like, okay, these are the things that I can bring. Um, but to be honest about that, right? Um, cuz, you know, it's like sometimes it's like, you know, when you're asked, for instance, like, how many people can you pull at a particular show? Like that's a very honest question. Um, and I feel like it it I think it serves everyone

1:34:47much better when you're able to give an honest answer in that regard.

1:34:51Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, um, I've never been like a bullshitter. Like, I've never been somebody who tries to enter negotiation and and asks for the world and then tries to negotiate down to, you know, what I find acceptable. Like, that's just never been my Um, so I'm always funny in negotiations where I'm just like, "Hey, this is what I want." And they're like, "No, I'll give you blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." And they're like, "No, no, no, but this is this is what I want. This like this isn't like I'm not starting asking for more. I'm just saying exactly what I want." And that's really all it's

1:35:30going to be. Or, you know, you you reach out to somebody and you say, "Hey, I you know, I want you to feature. I want a remix or whatever and I'll I'll pay you this amount of money." And they're like, "Yeah, but maybe you can pay a little blah blah blah." you know, no, no. This this is what I'm offering. That's it. This is the the final offer. I always come out of the gate with my final offer. So, probably not the best business tactic, but it's it's the only way I know how to be.

1:35:52Yeah. Yeah. I think it kind of goes back to something you said earlier in the conversation when you were like, "This is just how I am. This is my wiring." Um, you know,

1:36:01it wouldn't even occur to me to do anything else.

1:36:05It just it doesn't dawn on me. So these and then you know I hear about how other people approach these things. I'm like huh interesting. Can't do it. This is my my brain won't let me do it.

1:36:18Well I appreciate that you're willing to share the insides of your brain because um I think sometimes it's like you know you you might be a certain way and not think about it. But for some other people it's like a practice it's like a practice like a practice skill to be able to communicate in that way and to navigate in that way. And it helps when you're like, "Oh, okay. That's something to think about, right?"

1:36:42Yeah. I mean, I wasn't always as self-aware, like, you know, um I was very very volatile when I was um when I was young, and I think it just, you know, was a a side effect of uh my upbringing and also the fact that, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I've I have pretty severe ADHD. Um, so like half the time I didn't understand why I felt the way I felt, why I did the things I did and said the things I said. And I was just it was just I I was quite honestly like a very impossible person to be around. Um [clears throat]

1:37:21and uh it it just trying and failing constantly for so many years, I just I had to figure out some way to live with myself in order to survive. Um which has not been an easy process and and is certainly far from over, right? Like the growing never stops. like you we're never a fully actualized person, but you know, if you can at least find if if you can look back at yourself and see progress, then that's something. Um so, you know, I've um just out of a pure need to survive and and maintain the the relationships that that matter to me, right? Um, I I needed to figure out how

1:38:17how to understand my brain well enough to not uh flush everything down the toilet, right? So,

1:38:27Um, it's uh it it's a it's a skill and I'm I'm I'm glad I learned it. Um, and I I find that it has helped me in more ways than I could have ever sort of imagined when I first like embarked on that on that journey. So, um, you know, it's uh it's it's a journey for sure.

1:38:52Yeah, absolutely. I mean, gosh, and I think it's awesome that you have the humility to go like, hey, that that was a mistake. That's something I'm I'm learning from. And you know, I I mean, you said that several times throughout the conversation where you're like, "Oh, I learned this thing." And I love that approach and that that mindset where you're like, "Oh, this is something I learned." Um, you know, and here I am. So, yeah,

1:39:16everything's I think everything is a skill. I think I think being creative is a skill. I think being um mindful is a skill. I think um being self-aware is a skill. These are these I don't know many people who are just coming out of the womb fully formed and and and being able to do all these things. Like you don't come out of the womb and you're Mozart. You don't come out of the womb and you're Gandhi or anything like that, right? We're all just kind of figuring it out as as we go. And and I and I and that's okay. You have to like

1:39:50give yourself enough uh grace to say like I'm imperfect. I make mistakes, but you know, you have to at least be working to correct those mistakes or those, you know, shitty behaviors, whatever, whatever, whatever it takes, what whatever you need to survive your journey or to make your journey less painful for yourself and everybody around you.

1:40:17Um, but it's all skill. It's it's all it's all learned. You just got to you just got to be humble enough to say I need to learn that skill.

1:40:27Yeah, absolutely. And um I mean like you know it's it's something where I feel like um I think if you have the openness you know to be able to say like oh that's actually something I really want to work on. Um I find that um when you ask other people for help with certain things too, people are more than willing to just be like, "Oh, this thing works for me." Um so yeah, and it's so awesome like it that you've been so generous with like the things that you're willing to share with other people.

1:40:59I think that's sort of our job uh here on planet Earth, right? is to try to do the best with the time that we have for not just ourselves and not just those closest to us, but you know, for anybody because if if you can if you can make a positive difference, why not do it? It doesn't cost anything. And even even if you want to look at this through the shittiest most um selfish lens, you get more out of life by being good to yourself and other people than you will be if you are an right? Like you can be self-absorbed, you can be egotistical, you can be rude and mean

1:41:49and all that kind of stuff, but it's just going to make your life more difficult. that's going to ruin your relationships. It's going to ruin your your your opportunity to succeed. And that doesn't mean you need to be a doormat. That doesn't mean you don't need to um advocate for yourself. Like of course you need to advocate for yourself and assert yourself. But um you know being uh kind in every opportunity that you have to be kind costs you nothing and it it pays off.

1:42:23Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um wanted to take a moment, by the way, um and give a shout out to XRL7 who is in the chat. Awesome to see you. Yay. That's awesome. We were just talking about you and how much we love being in the universe. [laughter]

1:42:41Bring Debbie back.

1:42:44Yes, please. We have requests. [laughter] Yeah, I'm so excited to um get to experience your live show. I'm so excited for your upcoming tour that you have ahead. Um loving the new remix that just got put out. It's awesome.

1:43:06Yeah. Well, that's all Sebastian. Sebastian's a mastermind. I love him.

1:43:10Yeah, that's awesome. Um, for those of you that are new to Daniel Graves and to aesthetic perfection, um, Daniel has a Patreon. Um, that is a way to support, um, him and his work. Um, is that your the your favorite way to connect with people is through that platform or are there other ways that you like?

1:43:29Well, I mean, what I always say is that I am I'm grateful for any support uh, that anyone can offer me, right? So, if you connect with my music and you know the only way that you uh can or wish to support me is by streaming the music, that's great. Like I I'm a big fan of streaming. If you want to delve deeper and support me on a more uh you know direct level, then Patreon is the best way to do it. Um we have an amazing community there. Um, I'm just, as I've said many times in this conversation, I'm just so blessed and so grateful to

1:44:10have such amazing supporters. Like, you know, what I do would not be possible without them. Like, that's the thing, like signed or sun unsigned. Like, this is this this whole endeavor costs money, right? And, you know, I wouldn't be able to do it without uh their generous support. So, if you want to get really really involved, Patreon's the way to do it. We do like live streams like this a couple of times a month. You can hear demos, uh, you know, you can see the inside of my book, all that, what, whatever. I'm I'm an open book as you, as you can tell. So, uh, yeah. Uh, come

1:44:44join our community if you, uh, fancy fancy some good times.

1:44:48Yes. Yes. [laughter] I love it. Um, I I think that it's one of those things where um you you you definitely have a gift for being able to um share what is on the inside of your brain, not not just through your art and your your creativity, um but also just being well spoken and being able to put into words. I think sometimes things that can be hard to voice.

1:45:13Yeah. Um it's it's a it's it's a skill. I think anybody can do it. I sometimes I'll uh be arguing with somebody and they're like, "Why are you mad right now?" And if if you can stop and go, "Wait a minute. Why am I mad?" And you take like 30 sec 30 to 60 seconds to sit there and analyze why you're mad. You can usually deconstruct it and go, "Oh, I'm mad because of that thing you said to me yesterday. Actually, I'm not even mad about this thing that we're arguing about right now. And like this for me has just been like the the ultimate life hack, right? Which

1:45:55is just understanding that so many of our impulses and thoughts and beliefs, they're just so um uh automatic that we're not even aware of why we feel the way that we feel and don't know why we think what we think and believe what we believe. And it's just I don't know. I once once once I learned to take that 30 seconds or 60 seconds for whatever my life changed like for the better infinitely. So that's the life hack. If I want anybody to take away anything from this conversation, it's like if you're ever feeling something or you're frustrated or or just thinking something you don't

1:46:37understand why, take a minute, sit down, ask yourself why why it is you feel that way, and you're almost always going to find an answer, and it's going to surprise the hell out of you.

1:46:49That is some solid wisdom, Daniel. Well, um I just want to say thank you so much to to everyone for for hanging out with us and for your kind questions. Um I always appreciate the thoughtfulness. Daniel, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you have so much coming up and um just really again appreciate your generosity um and your kindness. Thank you so much for everything that you create and and who you are in our community. Really appreciate Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. Always happy to ramble on about my philosophies. I do I do enjoy it. So, um

1:47:30yeah, thanks to everybody for listening to my music. Uh thank you for uh listening to me ramble and uh hope hope to do this again sometime.

1:47:40Yes, please. Yes, absolutely. Awesome. Well, everyone have a wonderful rest of your day, rest of your week. Um and we will see you next